Corporate VPN startup Tailscale secures $230 million CAD Series C on back of “surprising” growth
Pennarun confirmed the company had been approached by potential acquirers, but told BetaKit that the company intends to grow as a private company and work towards an initial public offering (IPO).
“Tailscale intends to remain independent and we are on a likely IPO track, although any IPO is several years out,” Pennarun said. “Meanwhile, we have an extremely efficient business model, rapid revenue acceleration, and a long runway that allows us to become profitable when needed, which means we can weather all kinds of economic storms.”
Keep that in mind as you ponder whether and when to switch to self-hosting Headscale.
Just came here to say that the guy looks like a creep!
become profitable when needed
By what, laying off all QA and support staff and half your developers the moment a single quarterly earnings report isn’t spotlessly gilded?
So I asked chatgpt for alternatives and I liked the look of ZeroTier, does this sound right to people with more knowledge than me, and would people recommend it in general?
Spoiler
Perfect! Here’s everything you need — broken down into three stages, from quick setup to full self-hosted control.
🧩 Part 1: Install and Connect ZeroTier
✅ Step 1: Create a ZeroTier account
Go to https://my.zerotier.com/
Sign up (only to create your private network — it’s free)
Click “Create a Network”
Give it a name
Note the Network ID
✅ Step 2: Install ZeroTier on your devices
🖥️ On your PC (Windows/Linux/Mac):
Download from: https://www.zerotier.com/download
Install and run
Join your network with:
zerotier-cli join <your-network-id>
(or click in the tray app if using the GUI)
📱 On your Android phone:
Install the ZeroTier One app from Google Play
Open the app, paste the network ID, tap Join
✅ Step 3: Authorise your devices
Go back to my.zerotier.com
Under your network, you’ll see your PC and phone listed
Tick “Auth” to allow them on the network
Note the IPs assigned (e.g. 10.147.17.34)
🎶 Part 2: Access Jellyfin + Symphonium Over ZeroTier
✅ Step 1: On your PC (Jellyfin server):
Open Jellyfin settings → Dashboard → Network
Ensure “Allow remote connections” is enabled (This just means other IPs — not the internet — can connect)
✅ Step 2: On your phone (Symphonium):
Open Symphonium
Add a new Jellyfin library
For the server address, enter:
http://<zerotier-ip-of-your-PC>:8096
e.g. http://10.147.17.34:8096/
It should connect exactly as it does on home Wi-Fi!
No public ports, no tailscale, no cost 🎉
🛠️ Part 3: Optional – Self-Host Your Own ZeroTier Controller
Only needed if you want to avoid using their cloud control plane. Not needed for basic private use.
✅ Requirements:
A Linux machine (can be your PC or a VPS if you change your mind)
Some CLI familiarity
Quick Guide:
-
Install Docker
-
Run:
docker run -d
–name zerotier-controller
-p 9993:9993/udp
-v zerotier-one:/var/lib/zerotier-one
zyclonite/zerotier-controller- You’ll now control your own ZeroTier networks, not theirs.
Docs: https://github.com/zyclonite/zerotier-controller
🔐 Even if you stick with their hosted controller, your traffic is still end-to-end encrypted. Self-hosting just removes the cloud coordination step.
✅ TL;DR:
Task Done
ZeroTier installed and devices connected ✅ Jellyfin accessible via ZeroTier IP ✅ Public internet avoided ✅ Self-hosting ZeroTier controller (optional) Available when ready
Let me know if you’d like help testing connection, optimising for battery/wake-on-LAN, or even integrating LAN fallback + ZeroTier for seamless home/away streaming.
Then asking if I can use a pi as a controller for the optional step 3:
Spoiler
Yes — an old Raspberry Pi running Raspberry Pi OS is perfectly capable of hosting a ZeroTier controller! It’s low-power, quiet, and ideal for self-hosted network services.
Here’s how to get it up and running.
🛠️ Self-Hosting a ZeroTier Controller on Raspberry Pi (PiOS)
✅ Requirements:
Raspberry Pi with PiOS Lite or Full (Debian-based)
Internet access (Ethernet or Wi-Fi)
Static IP on your LAN (recommended)
Port UDP 9993 open on your LAN (only needed if other clients are connecting over LAN)
🔧 Step-by-Step: Install Docker and the Controller
- Update and install Docker
Open a terminal on your Pi or SSH in:
sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade -y curl -sSL https://get.docker.com/ | sh sudo usermod -aG docker $USER
Log out and back in (or reboot) to activate Docker group access.
- Run the ZeroTier controller in Docker
docker volume create zerotier-one
docker run -d
–name zerotier-controller
–restart unless-stopped
-p 9993:9993/udp
-v zerotier-one:/var/lib/zerotier-one
zyclonite/zerotier-controllerThis starts the controller and creates a persistent volume.
- Initialise the Controller
After a few seconds, you’ll have config files generated inside the container volume. To extract your identity.secret and create/manage networks, you can either:
Option A: Exec into the container
docker exec -it zerotier-controller bash
Then use the zerotier-cli inside the container:
zerotier-cli status zerotier-cli listnetworks zerotier-cli createnetwork
Option B: Install the CLI on your Pi (outside Docker)
This gives you easier long-term control, but it’s optional. Let me know if you want help setting this up.
- Connect clients to your Pi’s controller
On each device (PC, phone, etc.):
Install ZeroTier as normal
Instead of the default control plane, point the client to your Pi
This requires updating the local.conf to override the default controller (ask if you’d like help with that — it’s a little involved but totally doable).
🧪 Notes & Tips
Your Pi can stay on your LAN. It doesn’t need a public IP if your devices are already on the same network or are able to relay.
If you do want this to work outside your LAN, you’d need to:
Port forward UDP 9993 (if your router allows it), or
Run a small VPS relay or drop it entirely and let ZeroTier do relaying automatically (works 95% of the time)
✅ Summary
Task Possible on Pi? Notes
Host ZeroTier controller ✅ Lightweight and runs well Use with Jellyfin via ZeroTier ✅ No public exposure needed Use Docker ✅ Simplifies setup Avoid external services ✅ No Tailscale, no cloud
Let me know if you’d like:
Help setting up the network manually on the Pi
Step-by-step for configuring your clients to talk to your own controller
Instructions for adding DNS, wake-on-LAN, or file access over ZeroTier too
Your Pi just became your private VPN brain 🧠💻
AI SLOPPPPPPPPPPPPP delete this nephew
Fine I deleted it. But it worked so whatever don’t need opinions now anyway.
-
Friendly reminder that Tailscale is VC-funded and driving towards IPO
You know what’s to come.
The answer to the question is immediately. Or switch to OpenZiti or Pangolin even.
I spent an afternoon doing precisely that. Bought a domain, a vps, and setup pangolin. Can’t believe how smooth it went.
@cooopsspace pangolin is not a replacement for tailscale/headscale. different usecase imho. @avidamoeba
Ziti isn’t though.
Point is, you know Tailscale will turn to shit the same way all VC stuff does.
Make no mistakes VC aren’t giving money out of the goodness of their heart, they expect a profit.
What’s the benefit over just WG?
You dont need to manually handle the WG config files. This isn’t really an issue when it’s just and your two devices, but once you start supporting more people like non-technical family members, this gets really annoying really quickly.
Tailscale (and headscale) just require you to log in which even those family members can manage and do the rest for you. They also support SSO in which case you wouldn’t even have to create new accounts.
Your tech illiterate grandma can set it up. It’s that easy.
WG is worthless in a CGNAT environment… And as we are in 2025 and time doesn’t stop it will be irrelevant for everyone someday, unless they fully support IPv6 (which I don’t know if they do, if you can use WG in a CGNATED network with IPv6 I’d like to know though, I am very rusty setting it up, but it might worth checking it out).
CGNAT is for IPv4, the IPv6 network is separate. But if you have IPv6 connectivity on both ends setting up WG is the same as with IPv4.
Personally, my ISP (T-Mobile 5G) has CGNAT and blocks all incoming traffic. I can’t simply Wireguard into my network. Tailscale has been my intermediary to get remote access.
I guess it’s time to figure how how to host an alternative on a VPS (I see Headscale mentioned in these comments).
Tailscale uses WG though, so it’s fundamentally the same thing. Like you said - just do Headscale on a VPS.
Or Wireguard on a VPS
No need to port forward, almost 0 config.
Easier/zero configuration compared to manual WG setup. Takes care of ports and providing transparent relay when no direct connection works.
a long runway that allows us to become profitable when needed
Switch to self-hosting headscale when they enshittify in an attempt to become profitable, duh
Bookmarking “headscale”!
I only recently started using Tailscale because it makes connecting to my local network through a Windows VM running in Boxes on Linux a hell of a lot easier than figuring out how to set up a networked bridge.
This sounds like a great alternative, and it looks like it can even work on a Synology NAS.
I mainly use Tailscale (and Zerotier) to access my CGNATED LAN, headscale will require me to pay a subscription for a VPS wouldn’t it?
I really envy the guys who say only use them because they’re lazy to open ports or want a more secure approach, I use them because I NEED them lol.
If (when?) Tailscale enshitify I’ll stick with ZT a bit until it goes the same way lol, I started using it 1st, I don’t know if ZT came before Tailscale though.
Vps can be really inexpensive, I pay $3 a month for mine
Same, my Hetzner proxy running NPM, with pivpn and pihole is doing all it needs to do for $3 and some change.
My only open ports on anything I own are 80, 443 and the wg port I changed on that system. Love it.
How does WG work on the local side of the network? Do you need to connect each VM/CT to the wireguard instance?
I am currently setting up my home network again, and my VPS will tunnel through my home network and NPM will be run locally on the local VLAN for services and redirect from there.
I wonder if there is any advantage to run NPM on the VPS instead of locally?
The vps is the wg server and my home server is a client and it uses pihole as the dns server. Once your clients hang around for a minute, their hostnames will populate on pihole and become available just like TS.
You do have to set available ips to wg’s subnet so your clients don’t all exit node from the server, so you’ll be able to use 192.168.0.0 at home still for speed.
As for NPM, run it on the proxy, aim (for example) Jellyfin at 10.243.21.4 on the wg network and bam.
I am a newbie so I am not sure I understand correctly. Tell me if my understanding is good.
Your Pi-Hole act as your DNS, so the VPS use the pi-hole through the tunnel to check for the translation IP, as set through the DNS directive in the wg file. For example, my pi-hole is at 10.0.20.5, so the DNS will be that address.
On the local side, the pi-hole is the DNS for all the services on that subnet and each service automatically populate their host name on pi-hole. I can configure the DNS server in my router/firewall (OPNSense in my case)
So when I ping service.example.com, it goes through the VPS, which queries the pi-hole through the tunnel and translates the address to the local subnet IP if applicable.
So when I have the wg connection active and my pi-hole is the DNS, every web request will go through the pi-hole. If the IP address is inside the range of AllowedIPs, the connection will go through the tunnel to the service, otherwise, the connection will go through outside the wg tunnel.
Does that make sense?
the VPS uses the pi-hole through the tunnel
The VPS is Pihole, the dns for the server side is 127.0.0.1. 127.0.0.1 is also 10.x.x.1 for the clients, so they connect to that as the dns address.
server dns - itself
client dns - the server’s wg address
On the local side, the pi-hole is the DNS for all the services on that subnet and each service automatically populate their host name on pi-hole. I can configure the DNS server in my router/firewall (OPNSense in my case)
Only if your router/firewall can directly connect to wg tunnels, but I went for every machine individually. My router isn’t aware I host anything at all.
So when I ping service.example.com, it goes through the VPS, which queries the pi-hole through the tunnel and translates the address to the local subnet IP if applicable.
Pihole (in my case) can’t see 192.x.x.x hosts. Use 10.x.x.x across every system for continuity.
So when I have the wg connection active and my pi-hole is the DNS, every web request will go through the pi-hole. If the IP address is inside the range of AllowedIPs, the connection will go through the tunnel to the service, otherwise, the connection will go through outside the wg tunnel.
Allowed ips = 10.x.x.0/24 - only connects the clients and servers together
Allowed ips = 0.0.0.0/0 - sends everything through the VPN, and connects the clients together.
Do the top one, that’s how TS works.
Or get something like a rapsberry-pi (second hand or on a sale). I have netbird running on it and I can use it to access my home network and also use it as tunnel my traffic through it.
Same. I mean, I was already looking to rent a VPS, but at least there’s some time so I can save money until things get weird.
Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I can see value of getting a VPS, especially if you are gonna be using it for some other projects, I have had a DO instance in the past and I thinkered with WG back then BTW, but if it is only for remote accessing your home LAN, I don’t feel like paying for it tbh, especially when some users get it for free (public IPv4) and it feels even dumber for me since I have a fully working IPv6 setup!
BTW my ISP is funny, no firewall at all with it, I almost fainted when I noticed everyone could access my self hosted services with the IPv6 address and I did nothing regarding ports or whatsoever… They were fully accessible once I fired up the projects! I think I read an article about this subject… But I can’t recall when or where… I had to manually set up a firewall, which tbh, you always should do and it is especially easy to do in a Synology NAS.
Anyway, back to the mesh VPN part, if they enshitify so be it, but in the meantime we still can benefit from it.
Thats just how IPv6 works. You get a delegate address from your ISP for your router and then any device within that gets it own unique address. Considering how large the pool is, all address are unique. No NAT means no port forwarding needed!
Been meaning to do this. Tailscale was just there and easy to implement when I set my stuff up. Is it relatively simple to transition?
I can’t unfortunately. They only feature I use is that fact I can access my ipv6 only server via an ipv4 only network.
Tailscale is a business seeking profit? (clutches pearls gasp)
It’s one of the key reasons why everyone here hates plex too so I don’t get why you’re acting like this isn’t a valid concern
…and what are current Plex users, that don’t like the direction Plex has taken, doing ? Riding the next horse. When Tailscale gets unbearable with their business practices, there are a lot of other options. Tailscale is just easy and it flippin’ works.
What next horse? There’s plex and there’s fully self hosting with Jellyfin or similar. The gulf is very wide between plex and that.
So, I don’t run the arr stack, or any of it’'s components. In fact, I’ve never even test run Plex. However, I hear that Emby is a better replacement coupled with Symfonium to take the place of PlexAmp. That seems to be the ‘next horse’ everyone is switching to, even tho Emby does seem to have some unresolved issues.
I just find the constant grind against profitability and capitalism to be a bit worn. I guess you could say I am fully ensconced in capitalism as I run three tax paying, for profit businesses. The issues I take with capitalism is unbridled, uncontrolled greed…when we place profit over principal. By all means tho, make yo’ paper son.
These are my opinions. There are many like them, but these ones are mine.
Plexamp is exclusively music so that’s pretty limited, and what you’re proposing with emby is a lot more complicated than setting up Plex
If there’s no one who can replace you with someone else, if you don’t deliver profit growth that they expect, then there’s a chance for you to apply principle over profit because it’s up to you. Many if not most corporations however can and do replace corporate leadership that doesn’t deliver profit growth with one that does. In these circumstances, leadership can rarely put principle over profit without being replaced. Many if not most of us see the direct effects of this process on our lives, working to get ever more of our incomes and health. This process hasn’t stopped and hasn’t slowed down. The opposite. This is why you’re hearing us grinding against capitalism as we can see the system all around us grinding us down. This is why it’s likely you’ll keep hearing it and it’s likely gonna get louder. I might not have your product in my home. If I do, I might be very happy with it because you’re not trying to get as much money out of me as you can. However I am certain without checking that I have Unilever, Kraft, Nestle, PepsiCo, Google and so on, and I know they are. You probably do too and they’re probably skinning you just as much. This is what capitalism is for us and we will grind against it because our standard of living is falling and it’s not because of people like you. Small businesses have much more in common with us in this, than large corporations, or small corporations funded by large capital of different kinds. I’m an employee of a very large, well known American corporation that has strategically stopped making products that were objectively better for its customers but had lower margins, replacing them with much more expensive, higher margin ones. I’m not getting anything from the difference. Our major shareholders do.
I get all of that. I really do feel ya. However, I find it quite difficult to raise my ire over a free product (Tailscale) that I use in conjunction with my hobby, changing up their game and going IPO. I guess I do not take my network as seriously as others here do.
Not so much ire than awareness and planning so we don’t get caught pants down. I’ve been using them for 5 years, paid for it and have a pretty elaborate setup which supports services for family and friends. I’ve been happy so far, but will be decoupling from their infrastructure. No ire for them, just for the system. The system makes people and firms do what they do. 😄
I think I’ll just keep using tailscale until they start enshittifying, and then set up a Headscale instance on a VPS - no need to take this step ahead of time, right?
I mean, all the people saying they can avoid any issues by doing the above - what’s to stop Tailscale dropping support for Headscale in future if they’re serious about enshitification? Their Linux & Android clients are open source, but not IOS or Windows so they could easily block access for them.
My point being - I’ll worry when there is something substantial to worry about, til then they can know I’m using like 3 devices and a github account to authenticate. MagicDNS and the reliability of the clients is just too good for me to switch over mild funding concerns.
Yeah, as I said, it’s a friendly reminder. I’m personally probably doing it this year. It’s entirely possible that enshittification could come even years from now. It all depends on how their enterprise adoption goes I think. The more money they make there, the longer the individual users are gonna be left unsqueezed.
Yeah and steam is closed source DRM platform. Great software sometimes is worth the trade off.
Steam is a private company, not publicly traded and has no VC funding.
VC funding and potential IPO normally means enshittification is inevitable, as eventually needs to make insane profits by turning the screws on its users, as their business model wasn’t self sustaining.
Enshittification is inevitable for all free services (services as in with a server component). Thankfully the functions of tailscale are open source so until enshittification actually happens I will be happy with using a a useful but VC funded project. When I am not willing to make the trade off anymore I will use headscale or some other drop in replacement.
Enshittification is inevitable for all free services (services as in with a server component).
No, it is not that bleak. It is only inevitable when there is an active push for a short-term maximization of user base monetization (which is very much in the nature of VC). It can usually be avoided with products that are wholly under the ownership of all users (such as a cooperative or a government-provided service) or - only if one is lucky - with products of financially independent private enterprises under vaguely benevolent and unhurried leadership (such as Steam, to some extent)
Realistically Tailscale seems to currently be running on a model of get all of the self hosters to love running it at home so then they advocate to run it at work where all of the pricey enterprises licenses make the real money.
I’ve actually seen some real world usecases where if I had more political push, I would’ve put Tailscale onto the running as a potential solution
Hopefully they have the right people in place to push back at the VC firms about maintaining their current strategy rather than scaring away all of their best advocates before they can truly get off the ground. Having worked at a company owned by a hedgefund, part of the trick is having the right people in place in the company who can block the worst decisions by the capital-hungry owners
So I asked chatgpt for alternatives and I liked the look of ZeroTier, does this sound right to people with more knowledge than me, and would people recommend it in general?
Perfect! Here’s everything you need — broken down into three stages, from quick setup to full self-hosted control.
🧩 Part 1: Install and Connect ZeroTier
✅ Step 1: Create a ZeroTier account
Go to https://my.zerotier.com/
Sign up (only to create your private network — it’s free)
Click “Create a Network”
Give it a name
Note the Network ID
✅ Step 2: Install ZeroTier on your devices
🖥️ On your PC (Windows/Linux/Mac):
Download from: https://www.zerotier.com/download
Install and run
Join your network with:
zerotier-cli join <your-network-id>
(or click in the tray app if using the GUI)
📱 On your Android phone:
Install the ZeroTier One app from Google Play
Open the app, paste the network ID, tap Join
✅ Step 3: Authorise your devices
Go back to my.zerotier.com
Under your network, you’ll see your PC and phone listed
Tick “Auth” to allow them on the network
Note the IPs assigned (e.g. 10.147.17.34)
🎶 Part 2: Access Jellyfin + Symphonium Over ZeroTier
✅ Step 1: On your PC (Jellyfin server):
Open Jellyfin settings → Dashboard → Network
Ensure “Allow remote connections” is enabled (This just means other IPs — not the internet — can connect)
✅ Step 2: On your phone (Symphonium):
Open Symphonium
Add a new Jellyfin library
For the server address, enter:
http://<zerotier-ip-of-your-PC>:8096
e.g. http://10.147.17.34:8096/
It should connect exactly as it does on home Wi-Fi!
No public ports, no tailscale, no cost 🎉
🛠️ Part 3: Optional – Self-Host Your Own ZeroTier Controller
Only needed if you want to avoid using their cloud control plane. Not needed for basic private use.
✅ Requirements:
A Linux machine (can be your PC or a VPS if you change your mind)
Some CLI familiarity
Quick Guide:
-
Install Docker
-
Run:
docker run -d
–name zerotier-controller
-p 9993:9993/udp
-v zerotier-one:/var/lib/zerotier-one
zyclonite/zerotier-controller- You’ll now control your own ZeroTier networks, not theirs.
Docs: https://github.com/zyclonite/zerotier-controller
🔐 Even if you stick with their hosted controller, your traffic is still end-to-end encrypted. Self-hosting just removes the cloud coordination step.
✅ TL;DR:
Task Done
ZeroTier installed and devices connected ✅ Jellyfin accessible via ZeroTier IP ✅ Public internet avoided ✅ Self-hosting ZeroTier controller (optional) Available when ready
Let me know if you’d like help testing connection, optimising for battery/wake-on-LAN, or even integrating LAN fallback + ZeroTier for seamless home/away streaming.
Part 2, asking if I can use a pi as a controller for the optional step 3:
Yes — an old Raspberry Pi running Raspberry Pi OS is perfectly capable of hosting a ZeroTier controller! It’s low-power, quiet, and ideal for self-hosted network services.
Here’s how to get it up and running.
🛠️ Self-Hosting a ZeroTier Controller on Raspberry Pi (PiOS)
✅ Requirements:
Raspberry Pi with PiOS Lite or Full (Debian-based)
Internet access (Ethernet or Wi-Fi)
Static IP on your LAN (recommended)
Port UDP 9993 open on your LAN (only needed if other clients are connecting over LAN)
🔧 Step-by-Step: Install Docker and the Controller
- Update and install Docker
Open a terminal on your Pi or SSH in:
sudo apt update && sudo apt upgrade -y curl -sSL https://get.docker.com/ | sh sudo usermod -aG docker $USER
Log out and back in (or reboot) to activate Docker group access.
- Run the ZeroTier controller in Docker
docker volume create zerotier-one
docker run -d
–name zerotier-controller
–restart unless-stopped
-p 9993:9993/udp
-v zerotier-one:/var/lib/zerotier-one
zyclonite/zerotier-controllerThis starts the controller and creates a persistent volume.
- Initialise the Controller
After a few seconds, you’ll have config files generated inside the container volume. To extract your identity.secret and create/manage networks, you can either:
Option A: Exec into the container
docker exec -it zerotier-controller bash
Then use the zerotier-cli inside the container:
zerotier-cli status zerotier-cli listnetworks zerotier-cli createnetwork
Option B: Install the CLI on your Pi (outside Docker)
This gives you easier long-term control, but it’s optional. Let me know if you want help setting this up.
- Connect clients to your Pi’s controller
On each device (PC, phone, etc.):
Install ZeroTier as normal
Instead of the default control plane, point the client to your Pi
This requires updating the local.conf to override the default controller (ask if you’d like help with that — it’s a little involved but totally doable).
🧪 Notes & Tips
Your Pi can stay on your LAN. It doesn’t need a public IP if your devices are already on the same network or are able to relay.
If you do want this to work outside your LAN, you’d need to:
Port forward UDP 9993 (if your router allows it), or
Run a small VPS relay or drop it entirely and let ZeroTier do relaying automatically (works 95% of the time)
✅ Summary
Task Possible on Pi? Notes
Host ZeroTier controller ✅ Lightweight and runs well Use with Jellyfin via ZeroTier ✅ No public exposure needed Use Docker ✅ Simplifies setup Avoid external services ✅ No Tailscale, no cloud
Let me know if you’d like:
Help setting up the network manually on the Pi
Step-by-step for configuring your clients to talk to your own controller
Instructions for adding DNS, wake-on-LAN, or file access over ZeroTier too
Your Pi just became your private VPN brain 🧠💻
-
Tailscale never sat right with me. The convenience was nice, but - like other VC-funded projects - it followed that ever-familiar pattern of an “easy” service popping up out of nowhere and gaining massive popularity seemingly overnight. 🚩🚩🚩
I can’t say I’m surprised by any of this.
Would you rather a difficult and hard to use program?
Easy to use means people will want to adopt it, and that’s what VC companies want. Nobody wants to pay millions of dollars to make a program that nobody wants to use.
would you rather …
If it means no VC, yes, without a doubt. That’s kind of the point.
My problem isn’t directly with the program - my problem lies with VC funding in general. Because they will come back for their money, and the project will inevitably enshittify and shove out enthusiasts in the never-ending search for infinite money.
The solution is getting rid of VC bullshit entirely. But we all know that will never happen.
I’m just a rat who got pied pipered AGAIN
I think there’s room in the world for a selfhosted, foss version of their software, even if a little simplified.
Maybe this is a pet peeve but it’s a vpn tool that forces you to log in with an “identity provider”. Yeah, no thanks.
That’s a basic requirement for almost any company. If you’re into hard coding credentials just use wireguard directly.
There are tons and tons of websites where you can create an account with just your email. I wouldn’t expect a third party account to be mandatory. Specially from a product like this one.
If I host headscale on a VPS, is that as seamless of an experience as Tailscale? And would I miss out on features, like the Tailscale dashboard? How does the experience change for me (an admin type) and my users (non-technical types)?
There are some community webUIs for Headscale, headplane in particular looks pretty good: https://headscale.net/stable/ref/integration/web-ui/
I’m not sure otherwise how different the experience would be.
Just use normal wireguard, why do you need tails or heads at all?
Accessing your home network that is kept inside a NAT by your ISP, without you having to acquire an online server somewhere.
Except you do need to acquire an online server somewhere, its just one that tailscale owns and controls instead of you, and when tailscale decides to enshittify and kill of their free tier you’ll be left wondering why you didn’t just rent a cheap VPS sooner.
Ask yourself, what is tailscale getting out of those “free” users that makes it worth providing services to them that they’d otherwsie need to rent a VPS for? What do you think their response would be if for example they got pressured about maybe too many users on their network are running a certain video streaming app?
You really don’t though. I use wireguard myself under the same scenario without issue. You just need to use some form of dynamic DNS to mitigate the potentially changing IP. Even if you’re using Tailscale you’ll still need to have something running a service all the time anyways, so may as well skip the proxy.
Your approach won’t work if you’re behind carrier grade NAT or you can’t open ports. My landlord provides my internet so I use tailscale (with headscale on my long distance vps) to connect everything and it works great. It uses LAN when I’m home, and NAT punches when I’m elsewhere.
If you only need to worry about the IP changing, then your ISP is not using NAT, or CGNAT as it is better known. I’m pretty sure that you can also use port forwarding, which is not commonly available under CGNAT.
Ah, I see where I got confused. Yeah, CGNAT isn’t very common around here. I don’t think I’ve ever run into an ISP that uses it. I can see how that complicates things.
Tailscale offers way more then just wireguard. ACLs, NAT traversal etc. etc.
While some use cases can be replaced with traditional wireguard, others not.
I’m curious what kind of a use case you can think of that “traditional wireguard” can’t replace tailscale for.
Tailscale has a maximum of 3 users on their free tier, so it seems like a super limited use case of people who DIY their own servers for Jellyfin or HomAssistant or whatever, but just a tad too lazy to setup their own Wireguard service in addition to whatever it is they’d be using it for… I think the vast majority of free tailscale users have simply never actually tried wg-easy , because if they did they wouldnt need to use a third party service.
Big difference in users and devices here. Tailscale might have a 3 user limit, but you can add up to 100 devices for free. So for me for example I have tailscale running in each and every docker container in my NAS. So each and every container can now act as a node on my tailnet. Users isn’t a big deal, any one node can activate funnel with a simple command and poof its available to the public. The convenience coupled with simplicity is what makes Tailscale so god damn good.
Can you segregate connections between different nodes on the tailnet, like say node G and H can only talk to each other and no other nodes?
Not sure, not tried that as that’s outside my use case. But I would assume its possible with ACLs!
@gravitywell you miss the whole goodie-part like funnels, acls, certs etc.
ACLs for me are really valuable as i’m using for a small team (3ppl) for server/app admin. @ShortN0teI think ACL is a paid feature with TS, but maybe im wrong. Once you get to the paid tier, you are just paying someone else to manage your VPN, which is fair enough but its not something you could’t also pay someone to do with wireguard (or openVPN for that matter). I think its fair to say “I pay for this service because i don’t want to have to deal with configuring it myself”, it might be easier to setup for some use cases, but if someone is already self-hosting things and has a DIY attitude to it, I don’t think tailscale can do anything wireguard can’t also do (it is based on WG afterall)
Maybe I’m not familiar enough with other kinds of setups to think of things though. My wireguard setup is basically a meshnet between several people’s home servers, each person has their own subnet only they can use, but the wider 10.X.X.X is shared by everyone, its certainly not the most secure because it doesnt need to be, but if i wanted to restrict one persons access to something i certainly could do that.
ACLs are on the free tier too.
Was listening to some computer podcast a while ago and the co-host and ex- hacker was saying that more and more VPNs are getting targeted and it’s just a matter of time we see quite a bit of them owned. (I think he was talking about implementation of VPNs for remote workers, rather than actual VPN providers. Sorry, it was some time ago)
Anyway, the host asked „What about wireguard?“
And the co-host: „Oh yeah, wireguard is solid! But all the services building up on wireguard? … They’ll get popped.“
Doesn’t have to be true, but something to keep in mind.
Headscale is great if you like networking fun, but that aside I’m not understanding why VC funding is such a black mark to the poster. Tailscale doesn’t generate meaningful revenue streams as its early-stage, so it has to secure funding to continue operations until they achieve high enough revenue to go public. That’s pretty standard in a business life-cycle, though. It seems like the main complaint is that Tailscale is a business.
The problem, though, is that VC-funded projects bite off way more than they can chew from the start and have to enshittify to keep shareholders happy at that level.
Growth for the sake of growth is a fundamentally broken concept. Tailscale provides a free service that many use. They already offer a paid support tier for companies, like other certain FOSS projects do, so why not call it good there? Grow based on actual customer needs, instead of shareholder bullshit “needs” (line must go up 🙄).
Not that it is a business but is a specific kind of business. VC funded startups eyeing an IPO more often than not start doing things users are not happy with. Maybe tailscale won’t, but might as well be aware what kind of company they are acknowledge there is a decent chance of rugpulls
It seems like the main complaint is that Tailscale is a business. And what about the Linux Foundation?
The Linux Foundation is not a business.
The businesses that fund the Linux Foundation through private equity are though, aren’t they?
Sure. Do you have a point?
Yeah, I think you missed that. Go back through and reread comments please. Thank you.
Could you summarise for us please? It’s not clear.
Yup, I don’t know if that is OP’s intention, but I would agree myself with the complaint that “Tailscale is a business”
The way I see it, if it’s a business it must generate revenue (either now or down the road), and that is enough to have me worried. I do have a Tailscale registration, and the way they approach email communication is already a yellow flag to me (too many ad emails)
That’s not really a justifiable reason, though. The Linux Foundation provides grants and scholarships to the open source community, but they do that through private equity business. So transitively, many open source projects are funded by businesses looking to capitalize on that innovation. Do you consider that when pulling from a git repository? No, that’s overbearing. Additionally Headscale is in part maintained by a Tailscale employee. That would surely create a conflict of interest given Tailscale is solely interested in generating revenue.
That’s not really a justifiable reason, though.
To you it isn’t, but to some of us it is. For me the standard business cycle is not acceptable because I almost inevitably end up under the bus.
The Linux Foundation isn’t a comparable example for me since it’s a non-profit. As a result it isn’t subject to the same market pressures for-profit businesses do, let alone VC-funded ones.
At this point, with everything I know and have experienced about the economy, politics and the world, I am trying to avoid depending on for-profit businesses as much as I can. I know how businesses operate, I know why they operate the way they do, I know what dynamics push them in the directions they go and I’m tired of being run over by the bus. If I ever form a business myself it would either be a non-profit, or a worker co-op, or both, as this will signal everyone who knows what I know what the direction of this business would be about.
Firstly, I’m not trying to start a flame war with commenters, I genuinely just disagree on something and some people are getting a little hot under the collar by it. The Linux Foundation comment I made because ultimately VC touches more than people think. Even its something that isn’t directly tied to VC, that money filters through groups like LF which is a non-profit and most would argue a quite legitimate organization. The point is there really is no separation or clear line of demarcation on what is “good” funding and what is “bad” funding.
The point is there really is no separation or clear line of demarcation on what is “good” funding and what is “bad” funding.
I understand and I disagree. A demarcation emerges from the goal of the funding and its effects. For me, one example of bad funding is funding that drives user acquisition at unsustainable prices by a firm that is also significantly controlled by the funding source. This is predominantly what VC-funding goes to. VC-funding that goes to a non-profit that the VC has no control over, where the VC can’t and does not demand financial return from, is not bad funding in my books. Corporate funding doing the same thing is also not bad funding. Government funding often has the least strings attached as it does not demand direct return, and this also is not bad funding. To top that off citizens can exercise control over government funding via the democratic process, unlike corporate or VC funding, where the vast majority have zero control, and the businesses funded have no accountability to.
Historically, Accel has never pushed acquisition. On the contrary, they do the opposite. Its why they VC fund over 300 companies, but you’ve never heard of them. That’s not to say they couldn’t, but they haven’t ever acted in that manner previously so logically it would be safe to assume that trend continues with Tailscale. I think that’s important here: its not about ability its about intent. If as a organization you give funding to another organization (even non-profits) you exercise at least some control over them as they are dependent on that money to function. This is actually a point other commenters have made in regards to Headscale. Headscale is maintained by a Tailscale employee. As they fund him personally, they can exercise some control over him as he depends on that money/employment. Again, even their comments circle back to ability vs intent. Tailscale could influence their employee, but would they? That’s where a lot of the VC argument goes. Its just speculation as what a group could do, not what they would do.
“The trend” is making money no matter what. That means they’re gonna screw you over eventually, the countdown has already begun, and it’s just a matter of time
I get your point, though Tailscale specifically crosses a line for me in this sense:
- Using code created/maintained by businesses: ok
- Relying in infrastructure maintained by businesses: not ok
I am not that big of an enthusiast, but the way I see it, if a company goes rogue and you’re using their open source code, it’s just a matter of forking it (I’m thinking about Emby/Jellyfin as an example) If you rely on their infrastructure (such as Tailscale servers) then you are at the mercy of the companies
To that end: I’d say that OP is prettt on point by suggesting Headscale, you’re still “using Tailscale” in a sense, but without chaining yourself to the business
I am not that big of an enthusiast, but the way I see it, if a company goes rogue and you’re using their open source code, it’s just a matter of forking it (I’m thinking about Emby/Jellyfin as an example) If you rely on their infrastructure (such as Tailscale servers) then you are at the mercy of the companies
🏅
yellow flag to me (too many ad emails)
Weird. I’m not saying you’re lying, but besides the registration email, and onboarding welcome email, I can’t think of any others I’ve received from Tailscale. In fact, I just did a search of my email client, and those were the only ones I’ve received.
I do believe my experience in this regard is not representative of everyone, I probably failed to untick some checkbox (regarding communications) and the “too many ad emails” are a handful (in 3 months), which to me is a handful too much (having to untick a box should not be necessary)
That’s cool. I don’t like spam either. You are correct in that you should have to opt in instead of opt out.
That’s pretty standard in a business life-cycle, though
I don’t know where people ever got the idea that normal = acceptable. I hear this used to justify all sorts of awful crap. It was only ever normalized because users were apathetic.
And what about the Linux Foundation? They are funded through private equity. Should you consider switching away because of that?
Does The Linux Foundation have complete control over Linux?
So, companies should not be allowed to invest in other companies? Who is allowed to invest in companies then? Only private individuals? But those individuals are apathetic, so they have to be made to? Or if they don’t want to, then since other companies aren’t allowed, wealthy private individuals would need to? Its not normal because its acceptable, its normal because the alternative is fantastical and unrealistic.
To the other point, does Tailscale have complete control over Wireguard? They don’t control the technology behind that. They do for their control server tech and to some extent Headscale, but that’s not what its built on anymore then what’s built on Linux.
companies should not be allowed to invest in other companies?
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying you need to be wary of companies that do because the inevitable end of that train is enshittification. Every. Single. Time.
does Tailscale have complete control over Wireguard?
Who’s talking about WireGuard? We were talking about Tailscale.
Tailscale builds on top of the Wireguard protocol, LF builds on top of (through grants/scholarships) the Linux OS. You can’t argue that it doesn’t matter that LF doesn’t have control over the underlying technology, but then argue that it does matter in Tailscale’s cause.
It doesn’t matter in either case. Neither of them have control over the underlying technology.
Does The Linux Foundation have complete control over Linux?
You’re the one who said it, though.
Yes I did say that. I don’t understand what you’re trying to communicate. TLF does not control Linux. Tailscale does control Tailscale. There’s nothing wrong with using Linux and there’s nothing wrong with using WireGuard. There may be something wrong with using Tailscale. I don’t know how to be more clear about this.
