Just removing the US from another world stage
Soon we will be completely irrelevant
Which is the plan
Gonna be as isolated at North Korea by the end of this administration. As trusted too.
Except they have the largest nuclear arsenal and the world biggest navy. They can’t be ignored.
Only “solution” I see is civil war. The nukes are still a problem for the rest of the world though
My brother-in-law is career Navy and he says they’d get mopped by the Chinese.
Eeeeehhh, if you just look at numbers of boats, yes. The US Navy has far, far more experience, though. Drones are also going to change the game in ways we’re only starting to see with the Ukraine War. With that, the answer might be “everyone’s boats are sunk now”.
China probably couldn’t gain air superiority over Taiwan, and without that, an invasion will fail. That will be true even if the US ends up losing more boats.
sounds like E1 speak to me. I’m sure your BIL is a lovely cadet, but he should learn when to turn-to and stfu.
He’s an officer and over 20 years now. This discussion took place shortly after he gave me a tour of the bridge of the carrier he was assigned to at the time. The terminals were running Windows XP. This was 7-8 years ago tops.
ah, so you’re full of shit and know nothing.
Great insight, corporal cumsock
I wish they were just removing themselves from the world stage. What they’re actually doing is shifting away from a model of direct co-operation with allied nations and strong economic ties with otherwise less friendly nations, to unilateral action wherever and whenever they feel like it.
Their foreign policy isn’t moving towards isolationism, it’s moving towards unchecked fascist domination.
lol the currency is heading to worthless, what are they going to buy resources with? Trade also requires allies.
So fucking hyped for this
Meanwhile, Putin and Russia is cheering this on. The parties they are going to throw are going to be absolutely epic. You’ve heard the party of the decade, you’ve heard of the party of the century, get ready for the party of the millennium.
So we dont buy US military kit. It’s got kill switches and hard to keep running without their support. It’s increasing looking like they aren’t aligned with the free world.
I recommend buying all of Hobby Kings >80 amp ESCs, all their 4S batteries, and lots of high KV outrunner BLDCs. Then buy all the carbon fiber sheets from aliexpress and build drones baby.
As directed by Vladamir Putin.
How would the military industrial complex not kill Trump if this were true?
Jail, I imagine
Look how stupid your country is, to hand the death on NATO to Putin because you’re on his side.
Thanks for the war and death and heat, Americans.
Fuck you.
Thanks for the war and death and heat, Americans.
Casting the first stone from paradise, eh?
Americans have been burning paradise. Sit yout ass down and be quiet.
I mean, not to absolve America of anything, but it’s not like the rest of the world hasn’t been complicit in burning paradise either.
The death of NATO is a good fucking thing. No more US military bases in the EU, no more forced expenditure of civil budget in weapons causing austerity, no more bombing of Libya and Yugoslavia, no more US influence in European politics. If you’re European you should salivate at the thought of NATO ending.
The end of NATO doesn’t mean any of that. We have bases in non-NATO countries too, so obviously that is nit because if NATO. It does mean Russia has almost free reign to invade more countries. If Russia can cause issues without being part of an alliance like NATO, why do you think the US can’t when it’s not part of NATO?
First of all, the country currently forcing my country to cut expenditure in healthcare and to put it into military is the US, not Russia. And the country funding and arming the most flagrant example of genocide in the 21st century is the US.
Second of all, Russia doesn’t have geopolitical reasons, nor the military/economic strength, to invade EU countries. And even if it did, the EU has nukes so you don’t need further military expenditure as deterrent.
Third, even if you forget all I’ve said above, the EU can still have a military alliance without the US, and it would be a much better thing.
First of all, the country currently forcing my country to cut expenditure in healthcare and to put it into military is the US, not Russia.
Wrong. There’s no requirement for spending as a part of NATO. There’s also no requirement for the US to do anything. The invasion of Ukraine by Russia is almost certainly the reason your country, whichever it is, is increasing military spending.
Second of all, Russia doesn’t have geopolitical reasons, nor the military/economic strength, to invade EU countries.
They have reasons. Some EU nations are former Soviet states. Just the “restore the former borders of the Soviet union” reason is reason enough, ignoring the resources or anything else. Do they have the strength? Why is that included here. Does it matter? It doesn’t have to be smart to happen.
And even if it did, the EU has nukes so you don’t need further military expenditure as deterrent.
I don’t know what you people who keep bringing up nukes think they’re for. You can’t use them. Using them will only ensure you lose, because everyone turns against you. They are only useful to deter other nuclear strikes, and also to deter nations from creating a last stand situation where you have already lost so there’s nothing to lose in using nukes. You can’t win a war with nukes.
Third, even if you forget all I’ve said above, the EU can still have a military alliance without the US, and it would be a much better thing.
Forget or dispute? You’re implying your logic is faultless. Anyway, sure. They can. They don’t though. I advocate that they do. I’d love to see the EU with its own defensive force. I don’t want them to be reliant on the US, like they currently are. However, that necessarily requires most EU nations to increase their military spending, which you’re apparently against. You want magic, not reality. You want all the benefits of military power without any of the costs. Sorry. That can’t happen.
They can. They don’t though. I advocate that they do. I’d love to see the EU with its own defensive force
Article 42
And
The command was designed in light of growing hostilities between European countries and Russia since the annexation of Crimea in 2014 and in response to logistic and bureaucratic hurdles limiting military logistics in case of a crisis.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Support_and_Enabling_Command
There’s no requirement for spending as a part of NATO.
Not a strict requirement, but pressure to do so. Whose idea was it to raise to 5% again? The only president who rejected the idea, Pedro Sanchez from Spain, got threatened with tariffs if Spain doesn’t conform.
They have reasons. Some EU nations are former Soviet states. Just the “restore the former borders of the Soviet union” reason is reason enough
Russia has been pushing for closer political and economic ties with Europe for the past 30 years. Russia was promised that if they dismantled the communist project NATO would cease to expand eastward, and NATO kept expanding eastward regardless. Turns out NATO was never about defending Europe (because it never has), it was always about creating tensions between Russia and Europe because a continuous political alliance of industrialized nations that spans from Gibraltar to Bering would be too powerful for the US to control.
The invasion of Ukraine by Russia is almost certainly the reason your country, whichever it is, is increasing military spending.
The justification is the invasion of Ukraine. But as a European, the number of times our military has been used to defend Europe has been 0 since WW2, it’s only ever used to support US imperial ambitions, to bomb brown children, or to keep control over colonies in Africa. Europe deals so much fucking damage with its imperialism, that’s one of the biggest reasons I don’t want military expenditure. They tell us it’s to defend from “le evil Ruzzians” but 5 years later Europe will be bombing brown children with that money, mark my words. For fuck’s sake Europe can’t even stop supporting the genocide of Palestinians. How can you want Europe to spend more money in military instead of engaging in diplomacy and not antagonising Russia?
Do they have the strength? Why is that included here. Does it matter?
It does matter. If Europe already has the military strength to repel Russia, why do you want the extra expenditure in weapons?
They are only useful to deter other nuclear strikes,
Why wasn’t the Soviet Union or any of its satellite states invaded by the west since they got the nukes, then? The cold war was raging, and yet there was no incident of overt military conflict between eastern and western block. How so?
I’d love to see the EU with its own defensive force
If love to see the EU pushing for diplomacy and not antagonising the largest country in the world which happens to be right beyond its borders. I would line to see a European military alliance independent from the US but I wouldn’t like it spending 5% of the yearly budget at the cost of already starving healthcare, education and pensions. Denmark already approved to raise retirement to 70 fucking years old in order to pay for this, Finland is pushing to remove holidays from the calendar, and England already said that raising this budget will have effects on expenditure in social services. This is absolute bullshit.
We have the far right getting stronger and stronger due to the worsening living conditions of Europeans because of austerity policy and lack of intervention of things like salaries or rent prices. Cool, let’s increase military expenditure to 5% right before fucking LePen, AfD, Vox and their equivalents get to the governments, what could possibly go wrong? Remember my words: in 5 years time, the European money will be spent not in conflict against Russia, but in middle east / Africa. Supporting military expenditure of the west is absolutely crazy.
You want magic, not reality. You want all the benefits of military power without any of the costs
No, I dont want the benefits of military power because I’m not a warmongering European chauvinist like you, I want the benefits of diplomacy, of social spending, and of good relations with neighbouring counteies. I don’t want my fucking healthcare money to end up in the pockets of Rheinmetall in order to lobby my politicians to go to war. I’m an able-bodied male and I don’t want my country to send me to be cannon fodder in the name of European imperialism.
Alright, you’re just being a Russian mouthpiece.
Oh, Russia was promised NATO wouldn’t expand? Not so much.
The entire rest of your comment is similar Russian drivel. I’m not going to spend any more time with this because your opinion is not founded in logic. “You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.” You have a chip on your shoulder and it’s hindering your understanding.
As I think it was a professor of mine said, international politics is about power, not good. States are always doing things to make themselves more powerful. None of them are good. Some of them are just temporarily doing more evil to gain power than others. Once you look at the world with this point of view, it makes much more sense (though some leaders are just stupid, crazy, or self-obsessed).
“You disagree with my point of view, so I’m not gonna respond to any of your arguments because my state propaganda told me your point of view is forbidden and ontologically evil and I can automatically discard any discussion about it. Yes, I’m the one whose opinion is founded on logic”
Please explain me how my concerns about the far right rising (arguably pro-russian) and the worries about the welfare state in Europe and my support for a EU-wide military alliance are Russian talking points.
Such an agreement was never made," NATO says in a fact page on its website, one of multiple pages that addresses the Russian allegations. “NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949 — and that has never changed.”
In the Tucker interview Putin references the meeting where he asked for membership. The minutes of that meeting could have been published to proof him wrong. In other words Russia was kept out and as an opponent by the choice of Nato.
Besides the wording is that there was no agreement and not that there were no promises. That suggests that Russia’s point of view is not entirely wrong.
As I think it was a professor of mine said, international politics is about power, not good. States are always doing things to make themselves more powerful.
In that light, aren’t Nato’s actions forcing Russia’s hands?
We’re pretty pissed off at ourselves right now too. I’m sorry things got this far and wish I could offer more than fear and frustration…
Then DO SOMETHING…
Are you waiting for someone else to save you?
I keep seeing this sentiment and I don’t understand it. Are you speaking purely out of anger and ignorance? The recent No Kings protest was either the third or first largest protest in the history of the U.S.A. and some communities have literally been running ICE gestapo out of their towns.
The Christian Conservative minority have gridlocked the American government, silently stacked the judicial system in their favor, and partnered with the American oligarchy to bankroll fascists and create the most pervasive, effective, and enduring propaganda machines ever seen (that’s already worked its way into Australia and had been finding footholds in Europe).
The idea than Americans aren’t doing anything about this or that there could ever possibly be a single unified movement that magically fixes “the issue” is incoherently reductive and impractical. If I see a comrade struggling for air I don’t yell at them to just breathe. I help them remove the pig standing on their neck. What are YOU doing to lend a hand or show lost comrades that there’s still hope?
I’d love to help, but the USA is currently TRYING TO ANNEX MY COUNTRY.
Do you hear yourself?
It definitely isn’t.
It really sounds like you cowards are holding REALLY tightly to the same talking points- so fucking desperate not to face your inadequacy and complete lack of spine. It’s gross, honestly.
Guess what, you’re not “one of the good ones.”
Your comment makes no sense and helps no one.
My word Brotha… just breathe. I know you darn good well if you really, really look deep in the center of it all. I mean like seriously look deep, you and I know who really is at fault. Is it really the common folks and citizens of America? Is it really those individuals who make barely enough to get a meal on their desk, because most of the paycheck goes to rent, house payments, bills and the unnecessary bs insurances? Bro the inflation is so bad that it’s not us. It’s the elites with insane amount of wealth. Plus most of us hate every part of the leadership that runs this country. How is it the common folk’s fault when you know damn good and well that it’s the crazy orange men. And I guess that justifies my statement in saying that, “Guess what bro, you are not the good ones either.”
Coward.
One word response, was all I needed. My precise exact sentiment.
They just had the largest protest in their history, have a handful of cities under military intervention to stop the protests, and are close to elect somebody that promises to fight against the federal government as mayor of their largest city.
What exactly do you expect them to do?
I keep getting this sinking feeling that this is all leading up to a precise and coordinated attack of evil.
Russia bombards the EU, the US attacks Greenland and Canada, while Israel finally bulldozes Gaza and Iran. China takes Taiwan and the south sea.
All at the same time so NATO is overwhelmed and can’t decisively defend it all without risking spreading too thin. No matter what happens, one of the bad guys gains ground.
I honestly have no idea if this is even possible, it’s based on a dream I had a few weeks ago.
Disturbing thought though.
Israel might bulldoze Gaza and maybe a few Mashriq countries, but it would suffocate on Iran. That’s a fucking big country.
17th biggest in the world. I was surprised when I learned that.
Graveyard of empires for a reason. They can try to OORAH!! MISSLES AWAY!!! Iran all they want, the resulting occupation will NEVER be a peaceful one, as there will ALWAYS be rebels in the hills and deserts.
NATO isn’t gonna defend Taiwan or Iran. The US will defend Taiwan, Russia will defend Iran. NATO has no interest in either. NATO will defend Canada and Greenland as best they can.
ruzzia has had it’s teeth pulled by Ukraine, so despite the barbarian posturing, they won’t be starting another war for a few years.
Wait, “attack of evil”? The US is literally funding and arming the genocide in Gaza, the US IS the greatest evil. You may argue for Russia being a close second (discounting Israel), but how is the US not absolutely the worst by any metric? How many millions did it murder in Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, and how many millions more were murdered under its approval in Southeast Asia(Suharto) or Latin America (Pinochet)?
Israel, Iran, China, and Taiwan are all outside the scope of NATO.
Canada, Greenland, and most of the EU do fall under NATO protection though. It’s a defensive alliance with well defined boundaries, member countries may have interests in other parts of the world, but since none of Israel, Iran, China, or Taiwan are NATO members it’s not something NATO deals with. Unless one of those countries were to attack NATO of course.
Russia is in no shape to make war on Europe right now, they have their hands full with just Ukraine, and face economic collapse. Iran is in a similar situation. Trump has stopped his 51st state talk, but he’s insane so you never know. China invading Taiwan? Trump is weak (he only talks tough) so you never know. But China is authoritarian and as we’ve seen of late authoritarian regimes don’t seem to be doing well running military campaigns so it’s possible they don’t even have the capability of invading Taiwan.
China might have a 2 year window coming up where it’s even possible to invade Taiwan. Their military has modernized a lot, but they probably aren’t quite to the point of being able to pull it off. At the same time, they are looking at a demographic cliff from the long term implications of the One Child policy.
It’s possible this window as already closed. That said, authoritarian regimes have started wars before that were terrible ideas.
Yeah with how effective drones have been in Ukraine (especially in hitting the Russian Navy) I kinda doubt they’ll have the capability. I feel like Taiwan is probably developing the capability to mass produce drones right now. They most definitely have the technology. Amphibious invasions are really hard to pull off, and China doesn’t have a lot of naval experience. And nobody has ever done it with a thousand drone boats in the water.
And yup, authoritarians do stupid things with their military, we saw that already with Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. So the question is, how stupid is Xi Jinping? I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
I think China is not stupid. If anything military wise they’ll do against Taiwan, it will be likely to blockade them.
I can see trump believing something so stupid as that, and putin might saber rattle about it, but the majority of the world, and china/india especially in this situation, probably would not go along with it. Europe still has functioning nuclear capabilities. Putin does not want nukes hitting his country, full stop. China does not want a nuclear situation kicking off with their neighbor to the north, and knows that the US under trump would likely turn on them despite a war ruining both countries. India no more wants china controlling the waters to their east than the countries immediately around those waters do, and would likely cause issues, which china also doesn’t want. As we’ve seen in the modern times with ukraine and some of the middle east conflicts and the india/pakistan border, nuclear powers tiptoe around anything that resembles direct conflict. The recent dogfight over the border was a pretty good idea of how reserved even ‘open’ conflict is.
So putin is likely not going to do anything more than a symbolic grunt at his western border, and china will just slowly weather down taiwan if the u.s. is withdrawing its influence. The idea of reunification isn’t THAT taboo in taiwan, and the candidates for it gather a decent chunk of votes. If the u.s. starts acting like a bitch around the world (oh, gee, just look at what’s happening right now), the sentiment towards it and china could easily see a rapid shift.
Many valid points, but having nukes generally only prevents getting nuked, not attacks by other means. At least as long as either party still has something to lose.
I agree with you, but my tinfoil hat is telling me to dig a shelter, preserve food and start making ammo. You know, for game hunting.
The thing is the EU is mostly concerned about Europe, while the US wants to play world police. So if China would invade Taiwan and NATO is without the US, I’m not sure they are going to get involved, it would open the gate for Russia. If the US is still part of NATO I’m not sure what will happen as it’s not an article 5 event. So the other NATO countries are not automatically involved even if the US is.
Russia is losing against Ukraine, the fuck they gonna do against EU, unless they use nukes in which case who cares, it’s game over
yup Russia using nukes anywhere near russia like Ukraine would mean the radiation will spread to russia too. so yes, it is game over.
Russia has an army that is capable of invading another country. The only country in NATO that have done that is the US. I don’t think Russia invading the whole of the EU is a realistic possibility but grabbing a few ex Soviet countries off the border…
Russia has an army that is capable of invading another country.
As I said I am pretty sure they can’t even properly invade ukraine and are struggling there.
The only country in NATO that have done that is the US.
I am not an expert on this but I am pretty sure a bunch of EU countries joined the US in afghanistan.
Of the 190 odd countries in the world the UK have invaded something like 175 of them.
You are talking complete nonsense.
You’re right, let me rephrase that. The US is the only NATO country with living experience in invading non-neighboring countries with current methods, doctrines and technologies. That’s not a simple thing to do and that know-how is extremely valuable if you want to invade someone else.
methods aside. Tiny UK is pretty impressive actually when you think about it, they “united” so many countries all over the globe across the ocean.
I quite like this video over what Brits contributed to the modern world. Most people don’t know. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcZQS4LBugk
Also UK returned most of their colonies back to the people unlike some huge countries like russia which is still trying to expand its colonies and territories in this modern day and age. and other huge countries making claims on Greenland or Taiwan.
For the other nations in nato it would be for the best (imo obviously). Republican usa is not a reliable ally and the other nato nations have not all come to terms with that new reality yet. If the usa quits nato, then it instantly removes all doubt and the remaining nations of NATO can immediately start work on improving the alliance, instead of being stuck in limbo for a few more years while they’re hoping that the usa will somehow magically unfuck itself.
We already know all of that and work is already being done to improve the alliance among non-US NATO members. The US is already considered non-reliable and the only benefit of the US being a member is that it puts some doubt in the minds of adversaries long enough to build up the militaries of the non-US members.
If the US leaves NATO, Europe would lose a lot of support.
If the US stays in NATO, they would refuse to support them anyway and could use their veto power to stop any potential action.
If they’re not going to have the support of the US military either way, and the US staying in NATO could prevent the organization from taking any action at all, it may be in the best interest of Europe for the US to leave NATO so they can’t cripple it from within.
NATO is a defensive alliance so the only thing a US veto would do is prevent Ukraine from joining NATO. But that wouldn’t happen until the war is over, and it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen until Russia’s economy collapses. At that point Russia won’t be a threat for awhile so kick the US out, add Ukraine as a member since Ukraine would be a stronger ally than the US anyway.
You’re confusing NATO with the UN.
Another Russian shill?
Well, a Republican, so yes.
Of course they do. Here’s hoping they all die in a fire
USA showing again how they are traitors and cowards.
Nobody cares what the State Duma has to say
france was right all along
Yes, but what’s the point? Nobody listens to France anyway, we are irrelevant. The only way to push our ideas is if somehow the EU embrace them.
And then we’ve got our own issues (doing nothing climate-related, lack of financing for science, nazi ideas getting popular, etc…).
All of Europe will be Russia.
The Russia that can’t take Ukraine? Keep dreaming.
Lol, they are really regarded, US paying more is by design right from the start.
