In my campaigns, Mystra does not take kindly to pedants or loophole researchers. A spell does what Mystra allows it to do, and you cast what Mystra allows you to cast
Mfs gotta remember that magic is a person, and that person can get annoyed
And then you’ll figure out how to cast a 12th level spell to steal the power of a god. Mystra learned her lesson the hard way.
But if you want to play RAW, go ahead. Oh, you died and you want to be brought back to life? Sorry, the spell targets a “creature that died in the last minute”, and now that you’re dead, you’re an object.
I mean that outlook, while it’s cool for your campaign, it would make raising the dead (to fight for you) pretty difficult as I thought most animate dead type spells required a dead creature to animate and wouldnt work with an object, otherwise people would just make small effigies to animate instead of summoning the dead in battle.
Animate Dead targets a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small Humanoid. Create Undead targets corpses of Medium or Small Humanoids. Danse Macabre targets Small or Medium corpses. And you could technically use Animate Object, which targets objects, or True Polymorph, which can target either. Finger of Death and Negative Energy Flood both target a creature, but they just bring back the target as undead if the attack kills them.
But if you really get into it, the game has way too many assumptions to be played RAW. There’s no rule that you can’t walk through walls. There’s no rule that when you’re reduced to zero hitpoints you become an object or get transported to an afterlife dimension or otherwise can’t take actions (assuming you die instantly and don’t become Unconscious). Some weapons require two hands, and nobody can use them because none of the races are described as having hands. Thri-kreen have four arms, but no mention of hands at the end of them. You also need one hand to wield one-handed weapons, but this doesn’t come up because no weapons are described as one-handed. And sometimes the rules contradict. There’s a rule that in the case of a contradiction, the more specific rule applies, but that just adds yet another contradicting rule.
No I don’t want to play RAW. I just don’t want in game solutions to out of game problems. Just (and I know that this will seem extremely absurd, but hear me out!) talk to your players about it like a normal person and make it clear before you start to play.
I mean it’s tongue-in-cheek, and it’s never really been a problem at my table. Just a fun way to remind casters not to argue about specific wording interpretations in spells, and take them as their most obvious meaning
Now, if a caster comes up with something clever, they can make an Intelligence (Persuasion) check to see if Mystra will allow something. Just don’t tell Mystra how her own body works
Okay. But do you actually allow any use of the spell that’s not as originally intended? Because some things are technical applications of the rules which rely on rules working as intended but still in very specific way without breaking the game at all.
Sure. The line is somewhere between “I cast minor illusion to make an image of a cabinet, and hide inside of it” and “I cast Shape Water to freeze that guy’s blood.” In the former case, the spell never says I can’t hide inside the illusory object. Clever, useful, not game-breaking. In the latter case, the spell says a creature can’t be inside the water, but it never says the water can’t be inside the creature! Bad, shame, you lose all your spell slots until the next long rest
The last one is actually covered by it I’d say, because (as by rules of spell targeting) you cannot see the blood and furthermore (as confirmed by “Water breathing” not working in wine) spells that affect water really only affect water and that’s it.
I know you mean it as a joke, but in my experience, punishing a player for trying to find out what you will and won’t allow them to do is a good way to get players that don’t want to be creative. Just tell them that you will not allow it. (Also… poor Mystra for having to waste that much divine power on someone trying to use spells in a way it can’t be used in anyway.)
If everyone at your table is habilitated fun, then… well, have fun, but I’d advise against it.
Finding loopholes is one thing, focusing on finding them so that you can “erm actually” a god is another. A wizard is bound to wonder if lungs count as an open container. A wizard who asserts that they are and doesn’t take no for an answer is gonna get his spell slots sapped for a bit
That one does not work RAW either way, because lungs are not an open container.
But I never said I wanted to actually exploit this in a game. You can’t really exploit this one even if you want to, because it’s bound to be extremely specific. I just wanted to point out the weirdness.
In my campaigns, Mystra does not take kindly to pedants or loophole researchers. A spell does what Mystra allows it to do, and you cast what Mystra allows you to cast
Mfs gotta remember that magic is a person, and that person can get annoyed
That’s a weird way of saying that she does not like Wizards. Because if you study something enough, you are bound to find loopholes.
And then you’ll figure out how to cast a 12th level spell to steal the power of a god. Mystra learned her lesson the hard way.
But if you want to play RAW, go ahead. Oh, you died and you want to be brought back to life? Sorry, the spell targets a “creature that died in the last minute”, and now that you’re dead, you’re an object.
I mean that outlook, while it’s cool for your campaign, it would make raising the dead (to fight for you) pretty difficult as I thought most animate dead type spells required a dead creature to animate and wouldnt work with an object, otherwise people would just make small effigies to animate instead of summoning the dead in battle.
Animate Dead targets a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small Humanoid. Create Undead targets corpses of Medium or Small Humanoids. Danse Macabre targets Small or Medium corpses. And you could technically use Animate Object, which targets objects, or True Polymorph, which can target either. Finger of Death and Negative Energy Flood both target a creature, but they just bring back the target as undead if the attack kills them.
But if you really get into it, the game has way too many assumptions to be played RAW. There’s no rule that you can’t walk through walls. There’s no rule that when you’re reduced to zero hitpoints you become an object or get transported to an afterlife dimension or otherwise can’t take actions (assuming you die instantly and don’t become Unconscious). Some weapons require two hands, and nobody can use them because none of the races are described as having hands. Thri-kreen have four arms, but no mention of hands at the end of them. You also need one hand to wield one-handed weapons, but this doesn’t come up because no weapons are described as one-handed. And sometimes the rules contradict. There’s a rule that in the case of a contradiction, the more specific rule applies, but that just adds yet another contradicting rule.
No I don’t want to play RAW. I just don’t want in game solutions to out of game problems. Just (and I know that this will seem extremely absurd, but hear me out!) talk to your players about it like a normal person and make it clear before you start to play.
I mean it’s tongue-in-cheek, and it’s never really been a problem at my table. Just a fun way to remind casters not to argue about specific wording interpretations in spells, and take them as their most obvious meaning
Now, if a caster comes up with something clever, they can make an Intelligence (Persuasion) check to see if Mystra will allow something. Just don’t tell Mystra how her own body works
Okay. But do you actually allow any use of the spell that’s not as originally intended? Because some things are technical applications of the rules which rely on rules working as intended but still in very specific way without breaking the game at all.
Sure. The line is somewhere between “I cast minor illusion to make an image of a cabinet, and hide inside of it” and “I cast Shape Water to freeze that guy’s blood.” In the former case, the spell never says I can’t hide inside the illusory object. Clever, useful, not game-breaking. In the latter case, the spell says a creature can’t be inside the water, but it never says the water can’t be inside the creature! Bad, shame, you lose all your spell slots until the next long rest
The last one is actually covered by it I’d say, because (as by rules of spell targeting) you cannot see the blood and furthermore (as confirmed by “Water breathing” not working in wine) spells that affect water really only affect water and that’s it.
I know you mean it as a joke, but in my experience, punishing a player for trying to find out what you will and won’t allow them to do is a good way to get players that don’t want to be creative. Just tell them that you will not allow it. (Also… poor Mystra for having to waste that much divine power on someone trying to use spells in a way it can’t be used in anyway.)
If everyone at your table is habilitated fun, then… well, have fun, but I’d advise against it.
Finding loopholes is one thing, focusing on finding them so that you can “erm actually” a god is another. A wizard is bound to wonder if lungs count as an open container. A wizard who asserts that they are and doesn’t take no for an answer is gonna get his spell slots sapped for a bit
That one does not work RAW either way, because lungs are not an open container.
But I never said I wanted to actually exploit this in a game. You can’t really exploit this one even if you want to, because it’s bound to be extremely specific. I just wanted to point out the weirdness.
Magic may be a fickle bitch, but she likes pedants more than wild mages. 🤷🏼♂️