Did those countries jointly attack Libya because the NATO charter demanded it or because those countries agreed it was a good idea? Did all NATO countries join in attacking Libyan forces or just some of them? Joining NATO doesn’t give the NATO alliance sole control over who you’re country goes to war with.
The destruction of the Libyan airforce so Gaddafi couldn’t drop bombs on his civilian population like Assad did in Syria was a good thing that saved lives.
Unless you’re a tankie who jerks it the images of schools and hospitals ripped to shred by barrel bombs.
Gaddafi doesn’t seem as bad only because you have never seen published photographs of his atrocities. Extrajudicial killings, torture, public executions, political repression, and elimination of dissent. Lots of horrors that I guess are okay as long as the trains run on time.
We also don’t know what a Libya where NATO didn’t intervene looks like. It’s not unbelievable that the civil war would’ve resulted in the same result but with a much higher body count.
By creating the country in Africa with highest Human Development Index instead of becoming your run off the mill slavery-sustained petrostate like Saudi Arabia?
The destruction of the Libyan airforce so Gaddafi couldn’t drop bombs on his civilian population like Assad did in Syria
Brown leader inevitably bombs civilians if not for glorious white interference
good thing that saved lives.
Yeah, surely Libya wasnt catapulted into horrifying civil war that lasted decades after and killed hundreds of thousands of people in formerly the most developed country in Africa…
You’re accusing me of racism but I could just as easily accuse you of thinking the only way for Africans to be properous is if they are ruled over by a strongman dictator.
The people of Libya rose up against Gaddafi in thr arab spring. The civil war had already begun.
I’ve seen what a barrel full of explosives and metal shrapnel does to the inside of a school classroom when dropped from a helicopter. NATO prevented that from happening in Lybia and you’ll never forgive them for it.
the only way for Africans to be properous is if they are ruled over by a strongman dictator
That’s only if you believe the western propaganda. [Libya had a functioning representative democracy and the role of Gaddafi is overblown. Morocco today is a monarchy and so is Saudi Arabia and I dont see you calling for the bombing of either country.
One of the cornerstones of democracy is education for everyone, and Libya had an extremely successful education system that turned Libya into one of the countries with highest education level in Africa, hardly pointing to the decisions of a dictator wanting to keep the masses oppressed.
I understand you believe Gaddafi was a bloody, ruthless, corrupt dictator, but Libya was arguably more Democratic than any country in its surroundings and the source of most claims of horrible dictatorship come from western media apparatus of “eagle burger freedom institute”.
The General People’s Congress existed as a formal legislative body, but it did not make Libya a democracy because any opposition to Gaddafi got disappeared. The system was an authoritarian regime with a centralized power structure under Gaddafi himself, utilizing the GPC to maintain the appearance of popular involvement without true democratic governance.
Morocco today is a monarchy and so is Saudi Arabia and I dont see you calling for the bombing of either country.
If the people of Morocco or Saudi Arabia rose up like the Libyan people did in the arab spring, I would absolutely support using NATO to stop those dictators from bombing their own civilian populations.
NATO’s intervention was prompted by Yugoslavia’s bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians, which drove the Albanians into neighbouring countries and had the potential to destabilize the region. Yugoslavia’s actions had already provoked condemnation by international organisations and agencies such as the UN, NATO, and various INGOs.
I wonder why only 10 years after the dismantling of the Eastern Block Yugoslavia turned from a problem-less multi-ethnic state to a country riddled with racial violence… Surely the west has nothing to do with that!
NATO sure as shit didn’t defend any of their member nations. Interventionalism is when you invade a country claiming that it’s “for their own good”. See: Afganistan or the second Iraq war.
Certainly have a better grasp of it than the guy who came to the conclusion that since America is bad then Putin must be good. You just have binary brain worms incapable of understanding anything more complex than a child’s tv show.
You don’t need to buy anything, you just need information literacy and critical thinking. Which is not to say you shouldn’t be critical of US foreign policy - god knows there’s lots to criticize. But comparing the genocide in Yugoslavia to the War in Ukraine is a clear sign of acute mental darkness or you intentionally amplifying authoritarian propaganda.
You’re a loser either way because of your utter failure to take intellectual responsibility. You might be just one in a sea of millions of ignoramuses but that’s not excuse
Exactly! You can’t just assume that the situation in Ukraine is equivalent to the genocide in former Yugoslavia. As with any claim originating from an authroitarian regime, it must be evaluated critically.
You’re a loser either way because of your utter failure to take intellectual responsibility. You might be just one in a sea of millions of ignoramuses but that’s not excuse
So… it’s ok if I disengage after that rude comment, right? Spare me your speech on “information literacy” if you’re simply planning on insulting me anyways, please. Just insult me right away. That’d be at least more honest.
Indeed, giving up intellectual responsibility and promoting the propaganda of authroritarian regimes (I couldn’t care less which ones you fancy in particular) should be named and shamed and ridiculed within the confines of the law.
Feel free to engage or disengage in whichver which way you want friend, couldn’t care less, my messages are not directed at you
The cognitive dissonace hits hard on this one, how dare you join a defensive pact!
Ask Libya how defensive NATO is.
Did those countries jointly attack Libya because the NATO charter demanded it or because those countries agreed it was a good idea? Did all NATO countries join in attacking Libyan forces or just some of them? Joining NATO doesn’t give the NATO alliance sole control over who you’re country goes to war with.
It was a NATO-lead coalition.
You mean the action taken under a UN mandate to implement a no fly zone and protect civilians?
The destruction of the Libyan airforce so Gaddafi couldn’t drop bombs on his civilian population like Assad did in Syria was a good thing that saved lives.
Unless you’re a tankie who jerks it the images of schools and hospitals ripped to shred by barrel bombs.
Gaddafi was bad, sure, but NATO reduced libya to a state where there’s now open air slave markets.
Gaddafi doesn’t seem as bad only because you have never seen published photographs of his atrocities. Extrajudicial killings, torture, public executions, political repression, and elimination of dissent. Lots of horrors that I guess are okay as long as the trains run on time.
We also don’t know what a Libya where NATO didn’t intervene looks like. It’s not unbelievable that the civil war would’ve resulted in the same result but with a much higher body count.
By creating the country in Africa with highest Human Development Index instead of becoming your run off the mill slavery-sustained petrostate like Saudi Arabia?
You can rape and murder innocents. Kill anyone who questions your regime. Blow up airliners. All good as long as thr HDI number is high enough.
I bet you’re a huge fan of Israel. They have such a high HDI number compared to their neighbors. It excuses all atrocities.
Oh, which country did Libya invade? What was the civilian murder rate compared to neighboring countries? Give me numbers instead of vibes, please
How about a Wikipedia page?
Give me number of murdered civilians in Libya at the time in comparison with Egypt or Chad, both neighboring countries.
And you’re not answering: which country did Libya invade?
Brown leader inevitably bombs civilians if not for glorious white interference
Yeah, surely Libya wasnt catapulted into horrifying civil war that lasted decades after and killed hundreds of thousands of people in formerly the most developed country in Africa…
You’re accusing me of racism but I could just as easily accuse you of thinking the only way for Africans to be properous is if they are ruled over by a strongman dictator.
The people of Libya rose up against Gaddafi in thr arab spring. The civil war had already begun.
I’ve seen what a barrel full of explosives and metal shrapnel does to the inside of a school classroom when dropped from a helicopter. NATO prevented that from happening in Lybia and you’ll never forgive them for it.
That’s only if you believe the western propaganda. [Libya had a functioning representative democracy and the role of Gaddafi is overblown. Morocco today is a monarchy and so is Saudi Arabia and I dont see you calling for the bombing of either country.
One of the cornerstones of democracy is education for everyone, and Libya had an extremely successful education system that turned Libya into one of the countries with highest education level in Africa, hardly pointing to the decisions of a dictator wanting to keep the masses oppressed.
I understand you believe Gaddafi was a bloody, ruthless, corrupt dictator, but Libya was arguably more Democratic than any country in its surroundings and the source of most claims of horrible dictatorship come from western media apparatus of “eagle burger freedom institute”.
The General People’s Congress existed as a formal legislative body, but it did not make Libya a democracy because any opposition to Gaddafi got disappeared. The system was an authoritarian regime with a centralized power structure under Gaddafi himself, utilizing the GPC to maintain the appearance of popular involvement without true democratic governance.
If the people of Morocco or Saudi Arabia rose up like the Libyan people did in the arab spring, I would absolutely support using NATO to stop those dictators from bombing their own civilian populations.
Libia has been at war almost since Gaddafi’s death at war. Is that a better situation than with Gaddafi?
Edit: missing words.
Almost what?
“At war”, sorry.
The people rose up against Gaddafi in the arab spring. He would’ve used his airforce to drop bombs on his civilian population the same was Assad did.
It was a civil war, not a revolt.
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Ask Yugoslavia how “defensive” Nato is.
Are we talking about this?
I wonder why only 10 years after the dismantling of the Eastern Block Yugoslavia turned from a problem-less multi-ethnic state to a country riddled with racial violence… Surely the west has nothing to do with that!
I thought mostly everyone blamed Serb nationalism that the socialist leaders kept in check
Because it wasn’t problem-less. Those tensions always existed under the surface.
And why did those tensions explode later? Just coincidence?
Where defense?
Defending people against ethnic cleansing seemed to be the goal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia#Goals
Cool motive, still interventionism. /s
Edit: That was also the official justification of Russia’s invasion. I don’t buy either justifications.
I don’t know what that is. NATO did an intervention on the ethnic cleansing, do you mean that?
NATO sure as shit didn’t defend any of their member nations. Interventionalism is when you invade a country claiming that it’s “for their own good”. See: Afganistan or the second Iraq war.
It did stop the ethnic cleansing though.
I’m not sure if interventionalism is another term for the same thing but interventionism is what I often see used for what you’re describing.
Yeah Russia was pissed we stopped little brother Serbia from ethnic cleansing the infidels and now makes a mockery of our altruism.
Only an idiot believes they’re sincere though.
The best understander of politics entered the chat. /s
Certainly have a better grasp of it than the guy who came to the conclusion that since America is bad then Putin must be good. You just have binary brain worms incapable of understanding anything more complex than a child’s tv show.
You don’t need to buy anything, you just need information literacy and critical thinking. Which is not to say you shouldn’t be critical of US foreign policy - god knows there’s lots to criticize. But comparing the genocide in Yugoslavia to the War in Ukraine is a clear sign of acute mental darkness or you intentionally amplifying authoritarian propaganda.
You’re a loser either way because of your utter failure to take intellectual responsibility. You might be just one in a sea of millions of ignoramuses but that’s not excuse
Its not critical thinking when you just parrot everything you’ve been told.
Exactly! You can’t just assume that the situation in Ukraine is equivalent to the genocide in former Yugoslavia. As with any claim originating from an authroitarian regime, it must be evaluated critically.
Have a nice day.
So… it’s ok if I disengage after that rude comment, right? Spare me your speech on “information literacy” if you’re simply planning on insulting me anyways, please. Just insult me right away. That’d be at least more honest.
Indeed, giving up intellectual responsibility and promoting the propaganda of authroritarian regimes (I couldn’t care less which ones you fancy in particular) should be named and shamed and ridiculed within the confines of the law.
Feel free to engage or disengage in whichver which way you want friend, couldn’t care less, my messages are not directed at you
Do you mean Serbia, or are you just confused in general about things?
Please try to use google before you try to be a condescending d**k
So what’s your problem here exactly?
This is a counterexample of NATO being a “defensive pact”.
I think that it’s still defensive if they stopped ethnic cleansing once.
Nope, that’s interventionism, not defense.
Also, whether or not ethnic cleansing actually happened is highly debatable. The death toll exploded after NATO started bombing.
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NATO successfully deterred the Soviet Union from invading Western and Central Europe for the entire cold war. That’s a VERY successful defensive pact.
I’m not claiming that they’re not effective at defending. I’m arguing that they’re still a tool of imperialism.