The problem here is having only two choices.
Where I’m from we have coalition governments. It’s very rare for one party to have a majority. So they have to argue for months and come to some kind of agreement with other parties. The good thing is that everyone can vote for what they really want. There’s not really any ‘lost votes’. The bad thing is that the coalition forming process is messy and slow and the result is much watered down. But I’d much rather have this than a two party system.
If I had been a US citizen I’d have voted for Harris though.
This is why I voted for Kamala, as it would’ve reduced harm for a little while…Long enough to figure out an effective counter. Right now, I am using my voice as best as possible to reduce further harm (with the Big Bad Bill coming into effect soon) I dread losing my insurance and wasting away because untreated it’s a guarantee. Given that I live in a mostly Red State, I could be one of the 17 million affected, or spared because I work part-time… If there are elections in the future, I will be voting with harm reduction in mind every time. Unless America becomes a doomed Fascist Nation which devours itself from within.
You just had 4 years of Biden “reducing harm”. How did that work out?
You just had 4 years of Biden “reducing harm”. How did that work out?
Has ‘harm reduction’ not been explained to you in simple enough terms yet, or are you just pretending to be incapable of digesting simple concepts?
This is just a troll, clearly wants to argue unnecessarily.
Stay strong, talk to your neighbours if feasible where you live, work together locally. Every major catastrophe in my area of the world, even ones which totally upended my country (Romania) for a generation, my family survived via community and friend groups.
In a collapsed or collapsing state, mutual aid is mandatory for survival.
survived via community and friend groups.
People often downplay associativity and are often encouraged to because power to the people scares the oligarchs. You’re easier to subdue if you’re alone.
Join your local community in any ways you can.As I am socially anxious; it’s rough to interact with others. However, I will stay strong and try to participate when possible. As, communities do survive if they actually work with one another despite their differences. We can survive Trump’s cursed presidency through working together. The rich fear that shit, this is why the policies Republicans are pushing are so disruptive for the working class. To reduce the odds of them being able to work communally to fight against oligarchs and their mouthpiece Republicans/MAGA sympathizers.
Best of luck. Whatever else happens, I hope you manage to make it through to the other side.
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Being made aware I’m lashed to a bunch of psychotic apes is terrifying and makes me want to kill the rest of the people on the bus and take control myself.
People are the absolute worst.
Honestly, seriously. Would harm reduction have happened if Kamala was elected. Yes. Did I personally core for her? Yes.
Did this get them elected? No? Shut the fuck up and stop blaming voters because the Democrats don’t know how to do politics on purpose so they don’t lose their bribes.
Want a better analogy? There’s a bus driving for a cliff and one group votes to minimize the impact of driving off the cliff while another group says please please drive faster off the cliff and do a backflip. A third group says guys, can we perhaps maybe not drive off the cliffd? And the rest call them insane and drive off the cliff
Honestly, seriously. Would harm reduction have happened if Kamala was elected. Yes. Did I personally core for her? Yes.
Did this get them elected? No?
What’s the relevance of this inane statement, again?
The Democrats aren’t the ice cream party. They are the “drive off the cliff slowly party” and spent most of their efforts on attacking people who didn’t want to drive off the cliff at all. Driving off the cliff is what both the Republicans and Democrats stand for and it is only “harm reduction” in the framework that people have to accept that the oligarchy will harm them and gives them the illusion of choice how they want to be harmed, rather than a democratic choice between being harmed and not being harmed.
The Democrats aren’t the ice cream party. They are the “drive off the cliff slowly party” and spent most of their efforts on attacking people who didn’t want to drive off the cliff at all. Driving off the cliff is what both the Republicans and Democrats stand for and it is only “harm reduction” in the framework that people have to accept that the oligarchy will harm them and gives them the illusion of choice how they want to be harmed, rather than a democratic choice between being harmed and not being harmed.
The point of the term ‘harm reduction’ is that it is acknowledging that participation in bourgeois democracy is buying time rather than fundamentally reforming the system, I can’t believe how many fucking times and in how many fucking ways I have to explain this to a community that is purportedly leftist.
So what do you do with that time? Hillary was buying time, Biden was buying time, Biden/Harris was buying time…
Instead what happened in these times was things to get worse, the “buying time” party bragging about its exploits in mass deportations, wall building and bombing abroad and ferociously fighting anyone that wanted to bring improvements. Even now we see the exact same thing with Mamdani. The DNC has “learned” absolutely nothing, because everything is going according to plan. Mamdani is threatening the plan. Tump is not.
When people decided to prevent ICE gestapo abducting people in their communities in California, Democratic mayors had the police crack down on them.
Your strategy is all messed up and it didn’t lead you anywhere. With another four years of far right DNC politics as “harm reduction” you would have only fostered liberal complacency and ignorance and on top of it created the economic conditions for the next iteration of Fascism to hit back even harder. There is no fighting with the US political establishment. There is only fighting against it, if you ever want to see the US become a reasonably okay country.
Well said. I tried to make this point elsewhere in the thread and got showered with downvoted, so it’s nice to see there’s still some sanity left in the world.
This guy gets it, if the opposition party cares more about maintaining their legal bribes than punishing those doing the bribing and accepting the bribes then they bear an equal responsibility to the destination that those in the car are driven to.
Fucking fantastic that Thalmann is making a comeback.
The amazing thing is that there is no Thalmann. Our Hindenburg is so disliked that nobody has to split the vote for him to lose.
I laugh but I cry. But yes.
My point was more about the attitude of “Let fascism come, it will lead to Better Things™” though.
It sounds like the problem is you don’t have enough allies in the fight against either, and your strategy is to bank on getting more allies in a fight against fascists than you would against democrats.
Good luck with that, sincerely; but I think it sounds like a bit of a gamble. Fascists are quite good at terrorising moderates into compliance and killing or imprisoning their opponents.
Bad ice ream is still better than driving off a cliff. You can tell me all day how bad the ice cream is and how shitty the place is because they don’t even try to make good ice cream, they don’t even try to get customers or do a good job. It’s still better than driving off a cliff. I wouldn’t blame the ice cream store for making shitty when people choose not to vote for it. They knew the alternative and still decided to leave it up to fate.
Sure, a nice ice cream shop is easier to get people to vote on, but when the alternative is going off a cliff, the ice cream is kind of a moot point. But sure, let’s blame the ice cream shop for not being attractive enough when anything but going off the cliff should be the obvious choice. Yes, the ice cream shop could have made it easier, but any sane person can see she obvious choice.
Let’s put it this way. If one side is saying they will kill everyone who isn’t straight and white, and the other side says they want to ban gay marriage. Now I think queer rights is really important but I would vote for the second to prevent the firsr. But people seem to be screaming “I’m never voting against gay rights!” Cool, so when the other guy wins and it’s way worse, at least you feel good.
I keep voting for ice cream and I get told “we can’t get ice cream because we have to vote to not go off a cliff again”
You get ice cream, just not as much as you want because some people refuse to vote.
Yeah, I think not going off a cliff is pretty important though.
Right, but eventually the cliff guys win and we go off the cliff anyway, and even if they never win we don’t ever get ice cream.
The solution seems we kick them out of the car.
But that’s not how voting for a direction works. I think this analogy is just starting to fall apart after this much discussion, we’ve taken it too far haha.
Listen, I’m all for taking out the trash and not just taking small wins to survive, but I just don’t see the path. I might be missing it, there’s plenty I don’t know, but survival at least would have let us survive a little longer.
I don’t see the path out of just surviving either.
Except maybe jumping out of the car.
Tuck and roll, brother
I blame both. The Democratic Party and everybody who did not vote for them. My heart is big, there is enough room to hate everyone!
That’s the spirit!
Do you think Republican politics have the slightest responsibilities or none at all? I think all this thread, and the analogy itself plays into polarization, which is not a good way to actually put the much needed bridges… Everyone can do a lot. There are plenty of tasks and battles. Voting is one, very relevant every X many years. Focus on the everyday too. And on every neighbor. All needs should be covered. Do your best. Allow yourself to rest. We can do this.
I’m sorry but this is an old tactic in my country. 2 major parties always fighting for power, and the one always ask to vote them because the other party will destroy the country.
And the blame goes to the no voters or the ice-cream voters or the voters that turn their back, not to the party itself or to their voters that did shit when they were in power for many years. Maybe its time to pay attention to what caused the problem and not to the result.
As for the USA, Trump is the outcome of the Democrats acting as Republicans for decades.
The ice cream no longer exists. It hasn’t existed for a long time, and no amount of wishing will bring it back.
I want ice cream, too. But before we can have ice cream again, we need to not die.
That’s QUITTER talk! I’m voting for Rocky Road.
I LOVE Rocky Road
So the cliff?
Brick on the pedal.
You’re right - it’s more like one group voting to drive off a cliff and the other voting to just drive really close to the cliff in case we decide to go off on some other vote, but so long as the cliff doesn’t win now, we can focus on convincing people ice cream is the better option. We don’t, and instead wait 4 more years to complain about the lack of ice cream, but that’s a separate problem.
Jeez more of this b b both sides same stuff.
If you think literally saying “they’re definitely different, but the difference is smaller than ideal” means “they’re the same” then things will never be fixed.
Dude you changed this it from “we want ice cream” to “we want to drive next to the cliff so we can drive off it later”. That’s not smaller than ideal, you literally changed it both sides the same, just later.
No, I changed it to “one side killing us, the other not, but still leaving it on the table” Which is a huge difference, but still a troubling scenario. Not driving off a cliff is orders of magnitude better than driving off a cliff, but still significantly worse than ice cream.
Dude one side wanted to get ice cream and you changed it to “nah, not that. I’m gonna change it to what the other side wants, just later. Change it to the complete opposite”. You completely changed it. Changed everything. Smh. That you either don’t want to see that or can’t see that… I’m out.
Still better than not voting to not go off the cliff.
The problem is people have voted for ice cream. They have read about people voting for ice cream for years before they were even born.
Lots of people want ice cream but we are at a point where people KNOW the cliff exists. They DO NOT know the ice cream shop exists because all the times they were PROMISED ice cream the bus just stopped at a sewage treatment plant.
The voters are not the problem. They have zero reason to trust the bus driver. Because the bus driver refuses to throw the cliff voters off the bus. Bad optics.
The voters are not the problem. They have zero reason to trust the bus driver. Because the bus driver refuses to throw the cliff voters off the bus.
The voters chose the bus driver.
No they don’t.
Voters are told to pick which driver they want and both drivers don’t listen to directions and can’t read a map.
So some voters don’t care who’s driving the bus or where it’s going.
Because they have no reason to care.
They tolerate the shitty ride and shitty passengers while looking out the window. Waiting for the ride to end. But it never does.
Yes, they do. The voters get a chance to decide who those two drivers are, and 85% of them stay home. Then they got to choose between the driver that wants to drive off the cliff, and the driver who swears they’ll go get ice cream. And then 40% of the voters stay home.
Now the driver’s taking us off the cliff, and you’re whining that the driver that got the most votes is doing exactly what they said they would.
They have every reason to care, but they don’t anyway. You can’t abdicate your power and then complain no one listens to you. We had a chance to have better choices, but no one but retirees reliably show up to primaries.
Really? Because Scandinavia has really nice ice cream. Europe too, with some problems.
Reminds me of this really annoying “I don’t do politics” advert that was airing on British TV two decades ago. Like, I’m surprised the ad didn’t end with a punch to the face.
More like two options: one runs the bus off the cliff while the other sets it on fire. Sure, we’ll live longer in the fire scenario. Maybe we can even put it out!
But I’m still looking for the fucking exit.
im sure the illogical thinkers will start thinking logically any day now
20 people voted to drive over the cliff. 30 people voted to fucking gun it and send that shit straight into the abyss. 1 person voted for ice cream but the cliff voters beat him to death. 50 people didn’t vote
Not really
Pugjesus doesnt seem to understand that you can elect people with a D by their name who will vote with republicans on critical votes. But hey as long as the D team wins on election day, thats all that matters I guess, right Pug?
Fully agree with Nina Turner. If you don’t wanna do politics, you blindly leave major decisions over your life to others, who - as we can see world-wide - don’t necessarily have your interest at heart. Democracy, human rights, freedom or any other such ideas require a populace to vigilantly fight for them and not let those with opposed agendas undermine them.
But that analogy afterwards is simply dishonest on many levels.
Firstly, if you are talking about “harm reduction” or the “lesser of two evils”, ice cream is hardly a fair representation of the lesser evil.
Secondly this mixes in non-political people, who do not participate in the democratic process with moral objectors and the duped.
Thirdly: It diverts equal blame (literally in the response) to those groups and to the voters, who actually want the bigger evil or the powerful actors enacting it. This presupposes some moral value on active vs. passive behavior, which can be argued.
And lastly: Even if we find a fitting ice-cream substitute like throwing one of the passengers under the still moving bus, or - how another user suggested - braking before driving off the same cliff: The two who voted for that lesser evil also fight the four voters who are against evil harder, than they are fighting the ones who want the bigger evil. Why? Because they’d rather still drive off the cliff than not. And then they turn around and dishonestly shame the anti-driving-off the-cliff crowd for wanting to speed up instead. That is not a very good strategy.
Are they the same? No. But please keep your arguments honest, or you might get the exact opposite reaction from people, than you are hoping.
Even if you engage in politics you have such a small amount of power that it’s effectively the same as letting other people make decisions for you.
Republicans in Congress just made a bunch of decisions for me that I had no influence over despite having voted every time for the past quarter century.
Although I understand your point and would want to add that something like the Citizens United decision further diminishes power of the people without immense funds, I would like to point out, that participating in a democratic process doesn’t merely mean drawing a cross onto a piece of paper every 2 or 4 years. Much more is possible and in fact necessary.
As an example and can be witnessed right now, there is a severe lack of organizing of pro democratic forces. Which is also the result of a decades-long campaign by the capital-interest-serving political establishment to delegitimize or outright destroy such movements and organizations, from worker’s unions to independant media to the “Bernie Bros”.
Make no mistake though. They did this, because they know, that this type of collective political actions bare real power. It is upon each one of us wanting to defend democracy, basic rights and the rule of law to do our part to take back that power. Voting is but a small part of that, if you don’t have the people you need actually running, because they can’t afford to and you cannot seriously pressure those elected like the donor-class does.
It felt the same way before Citizens United. I vote and write letters and organize and the government does what it wants.
I’m sorry you feel that way and I find myself having the same thoughts from time to time. I have to concede though, that the US is in fact the center of modern Neoliberalism and legal bribery.
Yet… You know who the lobbyists and donors don’t bother talking to? Bernie Sanders (and Ron Paul when he was still in office). Why? Because they know that they have core principles. Then the question becomes: How do we organize (meaning financial resources, outreach, strategy, know-how, recruitment, analysis, policy creation, media and many more) to get more of these people into office? And how can we put pressure on elected officials to enact “our” policies?
Agenda 2025, or the decades long judicial take-over did not come from Trump, but from such organizations like the Heritage Foundation. Which of course are funded by billionaires like Peter Thiel. These people and organizations have huge advantages over the rest, that is clear. But they need more than just money to be able to put public pressure on elected officials, to the point where 25% of voters are ride-or-die with that program and a further 25% are at least ok with it or were duped.
And yes, I am well aware it is an uphill fight. But please: Don’t let bad experiences doom you to inaction. Especially when this very moment, with the daily over-reach of the republican regime, there is real potential to galvanize an effective resistance.
Too late. I hate this country and the people in it too much to care anymore.
I’ve been doing the organize thing and the pressuring thing and nothing works and things are worse than they’ve ever been.
You’re on a bus with 9 people. 1 guy takes up 2/3rds of the bus by himself. 3 people take up 90% of what remains, and the last 5 are stacked on top of each other on the last remaining seat.
The one guy with 2/3 of the bus says he wants to throw two of the other passengers off a cliff at random so he can have their seats. 2 of the 3 in the next segment think this is a terrible idea and say we should keep things as they are, with one voting for it because he thinks somehow everyone will benefit from the top guy having more space. The bottom segment votes 3-2 in favor of the idea, because they hate the people in the second group for taking up space they could use, and like the idea of possibly throwing them off a cliff.
But if we vote for the non-vegan ice cream place, we’re telling the leadership that we’re okay with non-vegan options and no progress will ever be made!
/s for the illiterate
