Trust but verify.
In general I agree but the timing of saying this is peculiar given the E.M. trial.
What’s the EM trial?
The Hockey Canada Sexual Assault Trial. The woman who was involved had the initials EM.
Some Quotes from the woman judge who presided over the case: “Although the slogan ‘believe the victim’ has become popularized of late, it has no place in a criminal trial. To approach a trial with the assumption that a complainant is telling the truth is the equivalent to imposing a presumption of guilt on the person accused of sexual assault and placing the burden on him to prove his innocence. That is antithetical to the fundamental principles of justice enshrined in our constitution.”
“On the basis of all the evidence, I find as a fact that the complainant did express she wanted to engage in sexual activity with the men by saying things like “Is someone going to f—- me” and by masturbating, the judge says.
“I accept the overwhelming evidence that E.M. was acting in a sexually forward manner by masturbating in this room full of men and asking them to engage with her. She communicated her willingness to engage in sexual activity.”
More ironic than peculiar.
Ghislaine Maxwell’s case got reopened. Cuz if there’s no Epstein list than why did she go to jail?
Because she trafficked children. The DoJ’s official story seems to be that Epstein and Maxwell abused children purely for their own edification while hanging out with a bunch of powerful people whom those children later falsely accused of sex crimes out of pure spite.
It’s not just about trump tho and it’s about concrete evidence. The list is yk about getting a list of all the perpetrators.
First hand witness testimony is evidence though.
And fwiw we’ve already got it. Not to mention he’s already been found guilty of rape in a court of law if we want to go through the whole “sexual assault means rape and the judge said so” thing. “He’s a rapist” is a statement of fact, even if the cowards at ABC News don’t want to say so again.
I am all for seeing trump and anyone else in that list behind bars, but this kind of bullshit thinking goes nowhere.
how is it bullshit please explain…
I’d assume it the bulshit is based on a different interpretation of the word “believe”. Some people mean “don’t need proof”, which is bulshit. Some people mean " investigate as if you thought it were true", which is not bulshit.
At least 26 separate women have accused Trump of SA over the course of the last 50 years, many of them before he entered politics. One of them even got a civil court to find as fact that he committed rape.
Just how many witnesses do you need here? Would another 26 be enough? How about a thousand?
I dont think it’s going to be a “list” like a nice spreadsheet itemising various white guys liaisons with under-age women including names, dates of birth, and witness details.
Whatever is released, if anything, is going to be ambiguous and you’re going to need to weigh the information and its source.
This meme is challenging people who would generally line up behind the conservatives to consider other sources of information.
Because people lie. What we can do is to not victim shame so women would be less afraid to come forward. This alone would help deter a would be attacker
Agreed.
It would also help out men and boys to have a safe environment to come forward with their claims without facing abuse from society/police.
Went wrong so many time in the past.
The list is the way
Here are all of the Epstein Files that have either been leaked or released.
https://joshwho.net/EpsteinList/gov.uscourts.nysd.447706.1320.0-combined.pdf (verified court documents)
https://joshwho.net/EpsteinList/black-book-unredacted.pdf (verified pre-Bondi) Trump is on page 85, or pdf pg. 80
Trump’s name is circled. The circled individuals are the ones involved in the trafficking ring according to the person who originally released the book. These people would be “The List “ Here is the story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsiKUXrlcac
Here’s the flight logs https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21165424-epstein-flight-logs-released-in-usa-vs-maxwell/
—————————other Epstein Information
https://cdn.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/Johnson_TrumpEpstein_Calif_Lawsuit.pdf here’s a court doc of Epstein and Trump raping a 13 yr old together.
Some people think this claim is a hoax. Here is Katies testimony on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnib-OORRRo
Epstein’s Ex Says He Boasted About Being a Mossad Agent https://share.google/jLMGahKlCzfV1RHZq Epstein and Israel both hired lawyer Alan Dershowitz, who says he’s building ‘legal dream team’ to defend Israel in court and on internationally | The Times of Israel https://share.google/Lb9hDOduBWG4Elpid
Epstein Docs: https://ia600705.us.archive.org/21/items/epsteindocs/
Epstein Bribes/Payments: 1 BILLION+ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7IrEi-ybzs
—————————other Trump information:
Here’s trump admitting to peeping on 14-15 year old girls at around 1:40 on the Howard Stern Radio Show: https://youtu.be/iFaQL_kv_QY
Trump’s promise to his daughter: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-ivanka-trump-dating-promise_n_57ee98cbe4b024a52d2ead02 “I have a deal with her. She’s 17 and doing great ― Ivanka. She made me promise, swear to her that I would never date a girl younger than her,” Trump said. “So as she grows older, the field is getting very limited.”
Trump’s modeling agency was probably part of Jeffreys pipeline: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/donald-trump-model-management-illegal-immigration/
A good summary of Trump-Epstein timeline: https://thepresidential.medium.com/we-have-been-gaslit-about-donald-trump-and-jeffrey-epstein-for-four-years-fbda67c20f75
• Much of this info can also be found on: https://theepsteindocs.com/
Feel free to do your part and spread this info around so it is never “lost”.
You can’t just convict someone on vibes
Fortunately pretty much everyone agrees
No you can’t. You can however refuse to give them a job because they keep making inappropriate remarks about women and multiple women have accused them of sexual abuse, rape and harassment.
EXACTLY. You don’t need to “trust”, you can look at the comments that were consistently made in regards to women, the vile behavior he engaged in, the known relationships, and the week court cases, i.e the evidence that was there in plain sight but people chose to ignore
It’s not called “vibes”, it’s called “witness testimony” and every country on earth totally does convict people based on that
While in theory this is a good idea, I have first-hand experience with people grouping together and accusing me of doing things with another (at the time) underage individual, trying to get me kicked out of school/smear my name/see me imprisoned/etc…
The issue? The other underage individual they said I was doing things with, was female. Me, I’m gay as fuck. Which was made pretty obvious during questioning. Also upon examination with the other individual being tested and questioned separately… Suprise, they found that, indeed, both testing and questioning showed the accused activities were completely unfounded. All parties that made these false claims admitted that they were falsified shortly thereafter. I could have sued them, and their families (since they too were underage) - this could have actually ruined my life, these things should be punished, these traumas compensated - but I decided against it, just wanting the situation to go away. It was an awful experience, and I still have trust issues; one of the accusers was friends with me. At least, so I thought.
Now, that’s not to say ‘oh they are lying’ in this case, but you can’t just blanket believe either side. You need facts, proof, evidence. Imagine if I were to make these claims about you - suddenly you are interested in evidence and due process.
(I won’t be replying to any replies to this comment - don’t want to tear open that scar any more than I already have writing this)
You’re situation, while tragic, has nothing to do with his. He has been found guilty of assault in court. He has paid hush money and come to settlements. He has had his due process and now is sitting in the highest seat possible and no one is safe.
The original pic uses non-specific language. If you find people responding as if it’s a generalization, that’s because it is.
The thing is, though, that whilst false reports do happen – and I’m in no way trying to downplay the tragedy and horrific consequences for victims of that, such as in the case of this thread’s OP – that’s far rarer than the much more common case of women being ignored, put off, and scoffed at when they try to report actual sex crimes.
I was groomed as a child and nobody would listen to me. Then I was kidnapped and raped for months – when I finally escaped and found the police, I was sent to a juvenile detention centre for being delinquent. Finally, after much therapy as an adult, I again tried to report my crime, and the first officer basically said I was wasting their time, and implied it was my fault.(e: I do have an open case now with a sergeant who takes me seriously, but that took some climbing of the hierarchy to find.)
This is extremely common, and part of why many, many women don’t even bother to report these crimes.
The ‘believe women’ thing is because of this, and reacting to such stories with ‘well actually I knew a woman who made up charges’, whilst true and horrible, feeds those who want to believe women are likely to make this shit up when it’s so common that 1 in 6 women will experience assault, and many are afraid to report it. That can be generalised, because it’s shockingly common.
e: people make up and falsely report all sorts of crimes – burglary is a big one. Lots of people make up burglaries when they’re in dire straits and realise they can get more for insurance than selling their things. Or arson. But when someone reports a burglary or arson, you don’t see others jumping in to say ‘well actually, my ex said I burgled her for insurance purposes.’ That absolutely happens, but it’s uncommon and irrelevant to burglary victims’ crimes. We all can see that has nothing at all to do with real burglaries. That’s a whole different crime.
Sorry, /rant, but this is personal to me.
Indeed the Republicans should not have supported such an individual, nor people should have voted for him, but it’s a quite different story.
It’s even easier to lie and blame a previously convicted person
While I feel sorry for your experience, rape can ruin a life just as much and happens more often (and unpunished) than false accusations. They actually took you serious and made sure to do the proper interogations to find out people were lying. We are just asking they do the same for women who are raped.
I just want to take a moment to apologize to women for all the bullshit you’ve had to endure, like being treated as interchangeable, objectified, talked down to. None of that is okay, and no one deserves it.
Would you accept an apology from someone who has hit you in the face and is going to hit you again?
Make it stop first.
Fair point. Accountability > performance. I’ll sit with that.
Why would someone who has never hit you in the face need to apologize?
We do not control others actions.
That’s why we can’t apologize for them. Rachelhazideas @lemmy.world’s comment says it better.
Would be cool if i could smile or show kindness around men without tge near certainty that ill be treated like a piece of meat.
Instead i need to take joy in denying them that.
What a hero. Line up, ladies, we got an ally over here
Apology not accepted. If you personally never did any of the above, then an apology is not needed. Nor is it fair to ask of men to apologize on behalf of other men who did. Women don’t want apologies from men who aren’t at fault. They just want men to stand up for them.
I get the sentiment, but wording matters because this is the kind of rhetoric the manosphere loves to take out of context to claim that men have to apologize for just being men.
That’s a fair sentiment individually, but it’s not just an individual problem.
Men don’t just need to be not part of the problem, they need to actively be part of the solution.
I agree that men should actively be part of the solution, but there is a healthy way of doing it without involving guilt and self-depracation.
Men’s mental health is a critical part of feminism. This is because when men’s issues are accepted and destigmatized, it helps destigmatize it for women too. Encouraging mental health support among men means reducing women’s role in providing emotional labor.
Sadly your view is not the norm.
It is. And no, I’m not one of the good ones.
Women are tired of ‘man guilt’ the same way PoC are tired of white guilt. At best, it’s self-depracating. At worse, it’s performative. Women want empathy and to be heard, not to hear an empty gesture that then gets weaponized by anti-feminists.
In Vietnamese there’s no phrase for “thank you.”* It’s more important to have a thankful attitude. I think we could take a lesson on the situation you’re talking about there.
* They use the literal words “thank you”, or it’s equivalent, for visitors, but that’s different.
If you’re the sort of moron who sees conspiracies everywhere, then the conspiracy goes one way in the first part and a different way in the second part.
They literally see more women speaking out as more unlikely.
Well…
If the justice system didn’t have a systemic massive unjustified distrust of women, and it spontaneously reached the peak of equality on this specific metric, then there would probably eventually be a higher rate of false accusations.
And then we’d eventually end up with a latent mild justified skepticism of all sexes, and then we’d still end up needing objective evidence.
So it’d be kinda self-defeating, except for a handful of glory years. Now would be a fantastic time for those glory years, no doubt, but it’s not a long-term solution.
Wow you just rode that sucker into space immediately
Statistically, less than 1% of all accusations of sexual assault are false.
Statistically, about 3% of sexual assaults actually end in a conviction. Only about 11% get to court. Only about 25% are reported.
Considering men do most of (not all) the sexual assault (by far, though), it seems currently a lot of sexual predators are escaping justice.
Now I get US society (and most of human society in general) is way hung up about sexual relations. It’s exacerbated by the Abrahamic religions who have proscriptions against sex which have informed our culture. We also fail to recognize teenage sexuality, and in fact hate our teens, seeing them as promiscuous delinquents even while we try to teach them math, and this has informed the rise of the alt-right, the man-o-sphere and all the War Boys that joined up with
Immortan JoeDonald J. Trump ( WITNESS! ). We crank out horny teens by the hundreds of thousands and don’t inform them at all how human interaction works.(Case in point, check out what romance looks like in cinema, especially romantic comedies, and see if you’d tolerate any of that crazy shit IRL.)
So we set teens up for sexual assault, mostly on the side of men, since girls are taught they’re slutty (and that’s bad) if they even think a half-libertine thought.
So we need massive amounts of both judicial reform and cultural reform regarding sexuality. And then believe women when they say they were assaulted.
where’s your source for the 1% statistic?
Unfortunately there’s no way to even begin to find out.
I could imagine the number being derived with a statistical model, but it would probably require you to plug in some priors.
Allegations of sexual crimes should always be taken seriously and addressed immediately, however, that’s not the same as taking the words of the victims words as the truth. A due process has to be mandatory and proof must remain a non negotiable requirement to arrest and punish someone. That’s the one and only way justice can be served.
That is a different topic. Conviction is not belief. Don’t be sneaky, please.
We all know. The rest is theatre.
This!
Because the list takes the onus away from women needing to speak out. We shouldn’t require victims to expose themselves if we have other evidence.
For the record: numerous women have spoke out against Trump for sexual misconduct while underaged. All the named ones are from Miss America or Miss Universe competitions. A couple of Epstein’s victims have filed charges against Trump too but those remain anonymous.
“At least” twenty-five women have publicly accused him and some have gone to court - here’s the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations
Yeah but when victims do expose themselves, it’d be nice if a bunch of online shit heads didn’t constantly chant 'wolen are liars!, they only want money!"
Agreed
Preaching to the choir in a place like Lemmy.
