but structurally being Irish American is considered to be barely white, more like poor white which is barely white among elite circles
I’m not trying to pick a fight, but interested in more info. What practical ways does this manifest for these folks? Are they subject to additional law enforcement scrutiny, denied job opportunities, or historically discriminated against in mortgage lending? Or are there other ways I’m not thinking of?
Poor whites are subjected to subject to additional law enforcement scrutiny, denied job opportunities, and discriminated against when trying to purchase a home. Im not saying it’s on the same level that it happens to black folks or actual minorities. But you don’t have to be Irish, to be white and get shafted by capitalism.
Poor whites are subjected to subject to additional law enforcement scrutiny, denied job opportunities, and discriminated against when trying to purchase a home.
This I completely recognize and agree with, but that wasn’t the premise posted. The premise was “Irish American”. I’d never heard that as a modern day form of discrimination, and that’s why I was questioning it.
But you don’t have to be Irish, to be white and get shafted by capitalism.
Right again, but again, that wasn’t the premise posted.
You can think of it like the infamous caste system in India. Which is in play almost everywhere if not as well defined. There are layers beyond just elite and poor. The Irish and Russians along other white immigrants might be considered in the trader caste (Vaishyas) while Latino, Haitian, South American…. P.O.C. immigrants and such are treated as Untouchables (Dalits)
I mean, the thing with Irish Americans is that they have been shit on for most of their experience in the US but then in the last 40 years or so ceremonially brought into the “white” club, but this club has no real rules other than it only temporarily brings minorities in, however the club wants to define minorities.
You won’t see structural discrimination against Irish Americans as easily perhaps as other more obvious examples of US racism but it is there, mostly in terms of classism. Irish Americans are the stupid hardworking drunks you do all the manual labor and leave the WASPs to run everything.
Things are changing, but I think to begin a conversation about why Irish Americans can have such disappointing politics compared to Irish people proper you have to understand the way the white elite in the U.S. has been playing poor-person-in-the-middle with groups like the Irish for decades.
It’s interesting because virtually none of that anti-Irish sentiment exists on the West Coast. Someone of fair complexion here is considered “white”, full stop.
I honestly think it is as simple as the elite white class of easterners wanted desperately in some way to be like mindfuckingly rich european elites and so why the hell would they go west when their parents already in their minds went farther west then they the children wanted to and were now having to commit genocide and other attrocities to drag a fabrication of that fantasy into reality here in the US?
You have to look at the cowboy trope and interpret it quite literally as the US collective psyche, racism, stereotypes of westerns and all because it really does explain the behavior of the US right now.
The west was not built by blonde hair blue eyed european descent cowboys taming the savage wilds, it was built despite them trying to kill the very soul of the landscape and despite the fact that retroactively cowboy imagery was violently whitewashed and plastered over a vibrant if brutal tapestry of history in order to simplify problematic questions about the “american project” into easy answers.
It’s interesting because virtually none of that anti-Irish sentiment exists on the West Coast.
I’ll echo this from the midwest. Thats why this post about discrimination against the Irish was so surprising to me. Chicago in particular goes all out on St Patrick’s day, and having any sort of Irish heritage is celebrated and cache that day.
It is celebrated in southern new england, I don’t think I have ever seen anyone insult someone seriously because they were irish or use slurs or anything (other than the incredibly prevalent joke that Irish people are all alcoholics? Like kind of yes but so is every other demographic basically…? At a bare minimum the Irish certainly aren’t alone there yet…) but I am not talking about big boisterous celebrations here, I am talking about structures of society and those can go entirely unreflected upon even as symbols of equality are flourished all over the sky, I ask myself with respect to Irish-Americans have those structures changed? I am not so sure and even if they have they left their mark on Irish-American culture, at least the parts I have experienced.
I don’t mean to claim I am an expert, I am not significantly of Irish descent and I am not Catholic, I hope I am wrong and I am seeing more into things than I have any right to but it just makes sense to me based on my lived life experience and what I know intellectually.
You’re speaking in abstracts, which there is certainly a separate welcome conversation on, but how are those of Irish descent treated differently? Can you give me a concrete example, even anecdotal, where someone of Irish descent in New England was treated worse simply because they were of Irish descent?
I can barely give you an example off the top of my head of a white person acting racist towards a black person in front of me, but that doesn’t mean the landscape around me wasn’t shaped by a racism towards black people…? It just means I have been fortunate? enough to be shielded from seeing it most of the time when it actually rears its ugly head…
I’m well aware of it, and I gave you three examples of how structural racism discriminates in my first post to you. Your answer was:
You won’t see structural discrimination against Irish Americans as easily perhaps as other more obvious examples of US racism but it is there
Even if I go on a deep search about the definition of structural racism, I won’t have your personal knowledge about which you are saying occurs to those of Irish heritage. That’s why I’m asking you. If you have seen it, have experienced, it or even been told about how it has affected those of Irish heritage, I’d think this should be easy to have an example. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist. Far from it! I’m saying I don’t have your knowledge and experience as it relates to Irish aspects and I’m interested in learning it.
I can barely give you an example off the top of my head of a white person acting racist towards a black person in front of me, but that doesn’t mean the landscape around me wasn’t shaped by a racism towards black people…?
Really? I can think of a lot off the top of my head and I’m pasty white guy:
“driving while black” is a thing. Law enforcement will target people of color driving citing minor infractions to pull them over that they frequently or almost always ignore if the driver is white.
I’ve personally witness people in middle management make racist jokes in the workplace on company time.
I’ve seen a black man that was an extremely qualified professional in his field give a professional assessment on a situation which was ignored. Yet a white person (who was barely even able to be qualified) gives the exact same assessment and it is accepted as fact.
You aren’t listening to me if you think I am saying I haven’t been in an environment that was actively being racist towards black people, I am saying I can’t easily point to a single place and say “look there! Racism against black people! Catch it!” because I am fortunate to live in a fairly progressive place.
The racism is still VERY much there, but it is structural often, harder to point to, that is my point.
I read a story in the paper about a middle-class white family that knew a big storm was coming and got out, and didn’t bother to warn their neighbors, poor whites living in a trailer park, who all died. And I was like, yeah that tracks.
I’ve lived in tornado alley for much of my life. During tornado season everyone watches the weather, and has a plan on what they are going to do. I would find it VERY strange if my neighbor suddenly started banging on my door telling me a storm was coming. I would absolutely already know from the same sources they know. Most of us are hyperaware of our dangerous weather. I imagine that point is the same for those that live in hurricane areas.
Because you said the “got out” then it sounds like it was a hurricane. If a tornado is closing in, the worst thing you could do would be try and “get out”. So what’s even more confusing if this was a hurricane, those have days worth of notice. Everyone in that trailer park would have known a hurricane was coming days before and could either choose to leave, go to a hurricane shelter, or decide to stay put. The reality is that trailers are the worst form of protection during bad weather, tornadoes or hurricanes.
What exact action you would expect from the middle-class family that wouldn’t make them racist/elitists from you post? Physically knocking on doors of dozens of trailers saying “a storm is coming” days before they leave?
I’ve been surprised by hurricanes before, it’s not impossible that it goes from a category 3 to a hurricane in the span of twelve hours to a day, and it’s relatively easy not to see news about it. I’m not in Florida, so it could be different there, but I’ve never heard of a hurricane siren, for example.
it’s not impossible that it goes from a category 3 to a hurricane in the span of twelve hours to a day
Cat 3 is already a hurricane isn’t it? Cat 1 is too. Below that would be “Tropical Storm” and below that “Tropical Depression”, right?
But you knew about the Cat 3. Would you still have expected the middle class guy from the house down the street to come and knock on your door (and that of dozens of your neighbors in trailers) telling them that the Cat 3 had upgraded to something worse while he’s trying to drive his family out of town?
My one experience with hurricane evacuation was when I was visiting Florida. Notices of danger are literally all over the place. Businesses close, grocery stores empty out, and THE TRAFFIC! Something like 12 hours before the expected arrival the government even authorizes all interstate highways to be unidirectional. What this means is that both sides of the highway are traffic flow away from the storm. Yes, half the drivers are driving “the wrong direction” down at highway speeds away from the storm. It was kind of fun actually legally driving the wrong way down an Exit ramp onto the highway going the wrong direction. Fun fact I never knew, there are a whole bunch of “WRONG WAY” signs on the back of the regular interstate highway signs. We never see them because we’re going the right way. Also, the road reflectors in the separating the lanes are ALL RED. Again, you only see them if you’re driving the “wrong” direction, which we legally could during the evacuation.
I am not the first person to point this out and I won’t be the last… but this is really the only way the system can work. If people aren’t turned against each other in this multi-dimensional shit show of empathy strangling twists of stereotypes and lived experiences than it will inveitably collapse into a giant “Why the fuck are we doing this?” and people will stand up together and put a stop to it.
It is NECESSARY for the middle-class white family to leave abruptly without telling their poor neighbors in order to rationalize the hate the middle-class white person has for poor whites (I wouldn’t do this awful of a thing unless I was right because I AM a good person) and vice versa to rationalize the hate the poor white person has for middle-class white people or black people or whatever… all that matters is an unaddressed trauma is created and then denied any resolution for the victims. Rinse Repeat.
Personally I think a better alternative would be free quality healthcare for everybody but what the hell do I know shrugs
I’m not trying to pick a fight, but interested in more info. What practical ways does this manifest for these folks? Are they subject to additional law enforcement scrutiny, denied job opportunities, or historically discriminated against in mortgage lending? Or are there other ways I’m not thinking of?
Also not trying to pick a fight.
Poor whites are subjected to subject to additional law enforcement scrutiny, denied job opportunities, and discriminated against when trying to purchase a home. Im not saying it’s on the same level that it happens to black folks or actual minorities. But you don’t have to be Irish, to be white and get shafted by capitalism.
This I completely recognize and agree with, but that wasn’t the premise posted. The premise was “Irish American”. I’d never heard that as a modern day form of discrimination, and that’s why I was questioning it.
Right again, but again, that wasn’t the premise posted.
You can think of it like the infamous caste system in India. Which is in play almost everywhere if not as well defined. There are layers beyond just elite and poor. The Irish and Russians along other white immigrants might be considered in the trader caste (Vaishyas) while Latino, Haitian, South American…. P.O.C. immigrants and such are treated as Untouchables (Dalits)
I mean, the thing with Irish Americans is that they have been shit on for most of their experience in the US but then in the last 40 years or so ceremonially brought into the “white” club, but this club has no real rules other than it only temporarily brings minorities in, however the club wants to define minorities.
You won’t see structural discrimination against Irish Americans as easily perhaps as other more obvious examples of US racism but it is there, mostly in terms of classism. Irish Americans are the stupid hardworking drunks you do all the manual labor and leave the WASPs to run everything.
Things are changing, but I think to begin a conversation about why Irish Americans can have such disappointing politics compared to Irish people proper you have to understand the way the white elite in the U.S. has been playing poor-person-in-the-middle with groups like the Irish for decades.
It’s interesting because virtually none of that anti-Irish sentiment exists on the West Coast. Someone of fair complexion here is considered “white”, full stop.
I honestly think it is as simple as the elite white class of easterners wanted desperately in some way to be like mindfuckingly rich european elites and so why the hell would they go west when their parents already in their minds went farther west then they the children wanted to and were now having to commit genocide and other attrocities to drag a fabrication of that fantasy into reality here in the US?
You have to look at the cowboy trope and interpret it quite literally as the US collective psyche, racism, stereotypes of westerns and all because it really does explain the behavior of the US right now.
The west was not built by blonde hair blue eyed european descent cowboys taming the savage wilds, it was built despite them trying to kill the very soul of the landscape and despite the fact that retroactively cowboy imagery was violently whitewashed and plastered over a vibrant if brutal tapestry of history in order to simplify problematic questions about the “american project” into easy answers.
I’ll echo this from the midwest. Thats why this post about discrimination against the Irish was so surprising to me. Chicago in particular goes all out on St Patrick’s day, and having any sort of Irish heritage is celebrated and cache that day.
It is celebrated in southern new england, I don’t think I have ever seen anyone insult someone seriously because they were irish or use slurs or anything (other than the incredibly prevalent joke that Irish people are all alcoholics? Like kind of yes but so is every other demographic basically…? At a bare minimum the Irish certainly aren’t alone there yet…) but I am not talking about big boisterous celebrations here, I am talking about structures of society and those can go entirely unreflected upon even as symbols of equality are flourished all over the sky, I ask myself with respect to Irish-Americans have those structures changed? I am not so sure and even if they have they left their mark on Irish-American culture, at least the parts I have experienced.
I don’t mean to claim I am an expert, I am not significantly of Irish descent and I am not Catholic, I hope I am wrong and I am seeing more into things than I have any right to but it just makes sense to me based on my lived life experience and what I know intellectually.
You’re speaking in abstracts, which there is certainly a separate welcome conversation on, but how are those of Irish descent treated differently? Can you give me a concrete example, even anecdotal, where someone of Irish descent in New England was treated worse simply because they were of Irish descent?
Structural Racism look it up
I can barely give you an example off the top of my head of a white person acting racist towards a black person in front of me, but that doesn’t mean the landscape around me wasn’t shaped by a racism towards black people…? It just means I have been fortunate? enough to be shielded from seeing it most of the time when it actually rears its ugly head…
I’m well aware of it, and I gave you three examples of how structural racism discriminates in my first post to you. Your answer was:
Even if I go on a deep search about the definition of structural racism, I won’t have your personal knowledge about which you are saying occurs to those of Irish heritage. That’s why I’m asking you. If you have seen it, have experienced, it or even been told about how it has affected those of Irish heritage, I’d think this should be easy to have an example. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist. Far from it! I’m saying I don’t have your knowledge and experience as it relates to Irish aspects and I’m interested in learning it.
Really? I can think of a lot off the top of my head and I’m pasty white guy:
You aren’t listening to me if you think I am saying I haven’t been in an environment that was actively being racist towards black people, I am saying I can’t easily point to a single place and say “look there! Racism against black people! Catch it!” because I am fortunate to live in a fairly progressive place.
The racism is still VERY much there, but it is structural often, harder to point to, that is my point.
I read a story in the paper about a middle-class white family that knew a big storm was coming and got out, and didn’t bother to warn their neighbors, poor whites living in a trailer park, who all died. And I was like, yeah that tracks.
I’ve lived in tornado alley for much of my life. During tornado season everyone watches the weather, and has a plan on what they are going to do. I would find it VERY strange if my neighbor suddenly started banging on my door telling me a storm was coming. I would absolutely already know from the same sources they know. Most of us are hyperaware of our dangerous weather. I imagine that point is the same for those that live in hurricane areas.
Because you said the “got out” then it sounds like it was a hurricane. If a tornado is closing in, the worst thing you could do would be try and “get out”. So what’s even more confusing if this was a hurricane, those have days worth of notice. Everyone in that trailer park would have known a hurricane was coming days before and could either choose to leave, go to a hurricane shelter, or decide to stay put. The reality is that trailers are the worst form of protection during bad weather, tornadoes or hurricanes.
What exact action you would expect from the middle-class family that wouldn’t make them racist/elitists from you post? Physically knocking on doors of dozens of trailers saying “a storm is coming” days before they leave?
I’ve been surprised by hurricanes before, it’s not impossible that it goes from a category 3 to a hurricane in the span of twelve hours to a day, and it’s relatively easy not to see news about it. I’m not in Florida, so it could be different there, but I’ve never heard of a hurricane siren, for example.
Cat 3 is already a hurricane isn’t it? Cat 1 is too. Below that would be “Tropical Storm” and below that “Tropical Depression”, right?
But you knew about the Cat 3. Would you still have expected the middle class guy from the house down the street to come and knock on your door (and that of dozens of your neighbors in trailers) telling them that the Cat 3 had upgraded to something worse while he’s trying to drive his family out of town?
My one experience with hurricane evacuation was when I was visiting Florida. Notices of danger are literally all over the place. Businesses close, grocery stores empty out, and THE TRAFFIC! Something like 12 hours before the expected arrival the government even authorizes all interstate highways to be unidirectional. What this means is that both sides of the highway are traffic flow away from the storm. Yes, half the drivers are driving “the wrong direction” down at highway speeds away from the storm. It was kind of fun actually legally driving the wrong way down an Exit ramp onto the highway going the wrong direction. Fun fact I never knew, there are a whole bunch of “WRONG WAY” signs on the back of the regular interstate highway signs. We never see them because we’re going the right way. Also, the road reflectors in the separating the lanes are ALL RED. Again, you only see them if you’re driving the “wrong” direction, which we legally could during the evacuation.
I know you typed a lot, but a simple “hide ya kids, hide ya wife” from the bougie woulda been nice.
And deny you the chance to make the joke? I’m not heartless.
I am not the first person to point this out and I won’t be the last… but this is really the only way the system can work. If people aren’t turned against each other in this multi-dimensional shit show of empathy strangling twists of stereotypes and lived experiences than it will inveitably collapse into a giant “Why the fuck are we doing this?” and people will stand up together and put a stop to it.
It is NECESSARY for the middle-class white family to leave abruptly without telling their poor neighbors in order to rationalize the hate the middle-class white person has for poor whites (I wouldn’t do this awful of a thing unless I was right because I AM a good person) and vice versa to rationalize the hate the poor white person has for middle-class white people or black people or whatever… all that matters is an unaddressed trauma is created and then denied any resolution for the victims. Rinse Repeat.
Personally I think a better alternative would be free quality healthcare for everybody but what the hell do I know shrugs