- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/16451158
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I like how people here are trying to have a discussion of whether or not voting third party, or voting at all, is necessary when there are currently concerns (and investigations) of Trump and the Epstein class rigging this last election in the first place. I should also remind everyone that there were similar concerns when Bush first got elected back in 2000. How sure are we that we can rely on voting if that is indeed true?
Furthermore-- I voted for Harris, but I am fucking sick and tired of voting for Democrats. Fucking sick and tired! They are fucking useless. I voted Democrat these last four presidential elections and it is these Democrats and the party as a whole who helped usher in Trump. It has done nothing but cause problems. Biden carved the pathway for both Trump and Netanyahu to carry on the genocide in Palestine and now in Lebanon. He helped the Israeli government go on this psychotic imperialistic crusade against others like Iran and very soon Cuba. And Greenland. Harris vowed that she would continuing working with the Israeli government if she was elected, and she vowed to have the ICE budget expanded also. Both sides ARE fucking bad. Democrats have done jack shit to try to impeach Trump or 25th amendment him so far despite the child sex trafficking through ICE arrests, nor the outright kidnapping and murders of American citizens on the streets and in ICE encampments. Nor for kidnapping leaders of other countries. The list goes on. Just impeachment alone.
Most Democrat congressmen are financed by AIPAC just like the Republicans. Whether anyone is liking or not, the Democrats are 1,000% enabling the Republicans, and even if Harris won this last election, we will be dealing with the potentiality that the Republicans would come back in full force by mid-terms or general elections anyway.
I understand that voting blue no matter who is a way for people to feel as though they are doing something. I still encourage voting. But voting blue no matter who, no matter how bad or how mediocre the candidate is, is clearly not working at all.
Both sides bad AND you still have to vote.
both sides are pretty bad, but you still gotta get on the bus
That doeant mean you have to get on one of the two major busses. It’s completely fine to pick a third smaller bus. It might take longer to arrive, but it doesn’t smell like someone pissed on the seat.
ranked choice voting would open up so many more bus routes
But although that bus may literally be perfect to ride on the inside, the engine seizes and tires explode so you’re stuck 5 feet from the bus depot with no actual hope of going anywhere
Bingo.
Just got perma-banned from the “Late Stage Capitalism” sub cuz I called the single moderator (always bad) out as a coward for deleting my comments pointing out that both sides are not the same and in the situation we find ourselves in it is to our benefit to vote for the one currently not engaging in fascism.
Kinda wish there was a rule that subs have to have more than one active moderator or get shut down after a period of time. But I guess some subs are so small and specific that wouldn’t work. Just sucks losing subs to a single powertripping moron.
I had some stuff removed there as well. I also just called someone out for letting slip the term “Democrat Party” which is an epithet used by the right wing.
While the Lemmy user base leans left, right-wing operators are still very active here. The know they’ll get nowhere by defending the GOP, so their big push is to convince people not to vote.
Both sides are not the same, but they are both pro-robber baron and anti-union.
I saw you get banned, they have weird rules at that sub but it’s their sub, their rules.
There are a lot of political subs for us to play in, and remember that if you aren’t being banned from somewhere that means you are a suckup
Voting third party is also a vote for Republicans.
No, it’s not. This is a lie to keep people from actually breaking the system. Every election is just a game of wedge issues used to polarize the population into two camps. That’s not how we as a people work. They’ve been doing this for decades, and it’s worked. Women’s rights, gay rights, racial equality, trans rights. They’re always building their platform around minority groups (or foriegn issues) and being loud about it while not doing anything to foster the support they claim to offer. What is the actual population of trans students in the U.S.? I am an ally, but I can see what it is now. It’s virtue signaling. It’s manufacturing a battle, or choosing one, that will keep us engaged and supportive while also making sure they don’t have to do anything for labor rights or reining in corporate America and wealth.
“Vote blue no matter who” is a trap to signal that the establishment is just going to tell you what you want to hear. Anyone actually willing to pull the country the other way won’t win their primary. Period.
A third-party candidate can be an actual threat because they pull voters from everywhere. Regardless, I’m not playing the red vs. blue bullshit anymore. I’m voting with my heart and beliefs, and I hope others do the same before third parties are completely locked out of the digital environment the same way they are in the corporate news environment.
And don’t come at me in response with some hypothetical about one of those minority groups, as I’m sure you or others like you would, as if it’s a binary choice.
cope
Right, but that’s also no excuse for running lesser monsters on the other side. We have every right to refuse all monsters no matter their severity.
We have every right to refuse all monsters no matter their severity.
I’m not saying this isn’t a generally good viewpoint, but doing so, at the wrong time, will get you fascism. And that’s what we got.
Sometimes you have to pick the “lesser evil” to avoid a cataclysmic shit show. Gotta read the room.
by voting 3rd or 4th
Damn you really blame people for not choosing between Moloch or Baal.
I blame people for not acknowledging that all things are not equal and one side is definitely worse than the other and not voting for the lesser evil leading to our lives being controlled by the greater evil.
That’s one way to see it.
But you’ll have a difficult time convincing me that AOC and Fetterman are equally evil. (Yes, I realize that they don’t compete directly with one another in elections.)
Some candidates are worth a vote, simply because they DO truly care.
A far greater proportion of candidates are worth a vote because their opponent is so much worse.
And there’s no law that says you MUST choose a candidate when you think both are unqualified. Most people want to walk into a booth, choose ® or (D) and leave. If that’s not you, then don’t vote for a presidential candidate. Your other votes will still count. Vote in local elections and state elections. Vote in primaries.
Unironically yes.
I’ve been voting in every election since I turned 18. That whole time pretty much was, “Don’t vote third party because you’re throwing your vote away.” That logic has been used by the establishment for that entire time to justify not changing, not supporting socialist candidates, and amplifying the ratcheting effect. I WILL NOT hold my nose anymore. I’ll write in a candidate. If anything, we should start coordinating outside of the established news structure and CHOOSE a third-party candidate to vote for and write in when the two options are garbage. Your vote is your vote, and every time you compromise your priorities to vote against your own beliefs and interests, you are playing their game.
TLDR: I’ll write in my own chosen candidate before I ever hold my nose for Democrats again, and there isn’t a damn thing anyone can say to change my mind.
No, this claim is false.
I know both sides are absolute shit, and I still voted for Harris. And I hate Harris, though not as much as Biden or Trump. I would not have voted for Biden.
I didn’t “design” this opinion to manipulate anyone’s vote. My opinion has been earned through life experience, including political volunteering and running for office.
I mean, both sides DO suck. But the decision being made boils down to which side you think has the best chance of leading to an eventual outcome that doesn’t suck. I’m not voting for a party I like, because frankly that doesn’t exist as a viable option, but I’m not going to not vote just because neither side is better than a 3/10. I’d rather the 3/10 than the 1/10.
I think there’s real value in being honest about your feelings. The people who represent us need to know we think they suck. The people around us need to feel like others have the same struggles we do. The space for nuance does exist.
No they are trying to get you to vote for other candidates. Will we see one elected to a major office in the 50 years? Probably not. But it will take even longer if people keep getting stuck in the blue no matter who mindset
The “blue no matter who” mindset is the correct mindset right now and for the forseeable future for national (presidential) elections.
There is no possibility whatsoever that a 3rd party candidate will win the presidency. None. At all. Period. The most popular 3rd party candidate in 2024 only got 0.5% of the total votes cast. And that was in an election where a lot of people were disenfranchised with the two big parties.
If people want to vote 3rd party, they should be doing it only in local/state elections to help build a 3rd party so that one day it may stand a chance in a national election. Again, not anytime remotely soon.
Let’s try voting ourselves out of fascism (lol) before we focus on the longterm goal of electing a 3rd party president.
People alo need to understand that the spoiler effect is very, very real. 2000 was so close, that if just 1% of the people who had voted Green Party for Ralph Nader im Florida had instead voted for Al Gore, Bush would never have been President, the Iraq war wouldn’t have happened, and our would would be in a much better place.
Because of the state I’m in, my vote for President doesn’t matter. Electoral college elects President.
So, I often vote third party for President (with exception to vote against Trump).
Everybody who votes for third parties knows they won’t win. That’s not the point. You don’t vote third party to win, you vote third party to encourage change in the major parties through this legal form of protest.
Remember, 40% of voters are Independents (D 30%, R 30%). You need their vote to win any election, Ds should remember that next time instead of chasing R votes (like Harris did).
Harris took a knee with the last election, and everybody in politics knows it. She’s not stupid, only a fool would chase R votes.
This is stupid. There are various good and bad reasons for both-sides-ism. It’s not all a conspiracy. You just have to use your brain and engage everything on a case by case basis.
A very common phenomenon is that you have a few people who have particular unusual opinions, say on extreme deregulation. And they’re often very intelligent and knowledgeable academics who can craft elaborate arguments in their favor. The more intelligent you are the more you can do the mental gymnastics to justify what you want to believe. The monied interests who want this deregulation find these people and amplify their voices or fund their campaigns. None of it needs to be a conspiracy. Every player has been selected for their genuine preexisting opinions.
There’s a famous line from a BBC interview of Noam Chomsky by Andrew Marr. Marr asks “Am I self-censoring?”. Chomsky replies “I don’t think you’re self censoring. I think you believe everything you say. But if you believed anything different, you wouldn’t be sitting across from me right now.” (Paraphrased from memory, not really quoted).
As a lifelong Independent, this post can F all the way off.
Yes, this is my civil, indoor voice.
Don’t you MFing tell me not to have opinions and free will, and that I should change who I am so I don’t make a bunch of establishment Dems that genuinely don’t care if I’m alive or dead have bad feels. Maybe the Dems should Fing field people that don’t gobble billionaire scroat like they invented it.
And Democrats can maybe, just once in a while, not happily fundraise and capitulate and do the policy strategy version of pump and dump schemes around the central point of “hey, we’re not the Nazis, we’re the mildly annoying guys that whimper when Nazis do Nazi shit, but do eventually give them everything they want. So it’s Nazi shit FAST or Nazi shit less fast with some of us around :D”
“Both sides suck” posts should encourage anyone with guts to see how much of the country wants a god damned set of independent candidates or even, (shudder) another MFing option between Shibag A and XXXL Shitbag B. People need to shed the chains of both parties and run at the local level. Give both sides a fucking scare.
Vote who you want. More power to you. But if you vote independent in a presidential election, you’re a goddamn idiot. Full stop. Because you are voting for someone who literally cannot win.
Goes to Vegas.
“I don’t care how dumb you think I am, I’m not playing the game your way. If I don’t get four of a kind on the first deal, then I fold. Take my money, see if I give a fuck, I can always make more. I want fucking four of a kind, goddammit, and I want it on a fresh deal.”
That’s how you sound.
Americans are truly a lost cause if they still think voting will get them out of this.
You need to organize yesterday and actively resist in a militant way paving the way for real democratic institutions by and for the people. Yet you still fail to see that the whole system is designed to keep you ignorant, enjoying the bread and circuses until you get to make a vote that changes absolutely nothing every 4 years and then go home satisfied that you practiced your democratic rights under capitalism. And you also fail to realize the severity of the situation you’re in, any other country would be rioting right now but you’re out there filming shit with the hope that some magic entity will step in and save you, or complaining about it on the internet.
Wake the fuck up Americans, for the sake of the rest of the world and yourselves as well.
The only problem with what you’re saying is it isn’t going to happen.
Americans aren’t going to do a revolution.
Not happening.
I’d love for us all to take up arms and end this bullshit, as intended. Not gonna happen though.
It’s like getting everyone to commit to a general strike, which would be a really great non-violent way to force change. Not gonna happen though. We don’t have that kind of solidarity.
Americans are truly a lost cause if they still think voting will get them out of this.
I think “Americans are truly a lost cause if they think ONLY voting will get them out of this.” is more accurate.
If a citizen has a right to vote, he/she should exercise that right. It’s a good habit to get into. You shouldn’t pick and choose which votes might count and which might be marginalized.
Participation is foundational to civic duty. If you don’t participate, sit the fuck down.
how about vote AND riot?
One of Propagandas goals is to get you to give up. Uncovering truths and doing research is hard according to Josh Johnson, if it was easy more of us would do it instead of watching memes. Propaganda is designed to flood you with so much crap that you question everything and then give up looking for the truth because its hard. Ai has not helped this.
