I get the sentiment and I’d agree, but it would be so much easier if not over half the Israeli population is now supporting a genocide. You think they know better, of all people
Yeah, Israeli public opinion is not helping any moral or sane cause. But that’s still no reason for those few human beings on this planet who are still sane to embrace racism.
I really don’t understand people who think a one state solution is possible anymore. I’m not sure if it ever was but certainly at this point it’s not viable.
I mean, the situation is so fucked that saying anything is ‘viable’ at this point is a pipe dream. But I mentioned a one-state solution to emphasize that I’m not asking anyone to be pro-Israel, or even ask that Israel, as a state, should be allowed to continue to exist. My opposition is to advocacy for genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Nothing is “viable” if you just extrapolate the present, except I guess genocide.
To take a step back, moral ambition and political courage are necessary. If Ireland could reach a Good Friday Agreement, if South Africa could overcome apartheid, so can Palestine/Israel.
A plurinational democratic state with equal rights for all, with a truth and reconciliation process, and with strong international support is the only way the middle east can ever reach peace.
And if we are putting on big boy pants and imagining a better world, why not envision the Mediterranean Union becoming a force for democratization and stabilization allowing the free movement of people throughout the region.
When realism is dystopian, fuck realism and pick utopia. Otherwise, why even live?
Yes but for as brutal as South Africa could be they weren’t in the throes of active genocide. The overwhelming majority of their people weren’t okay with the extermination of entire races. Or at least they didn’t say so out loud, proudly. Expecting them to live in harmony with the people whose blood they are braying for seems foolhardy to me. Expecting those whose children have been murdered in mass in front of them to just politely join hands with the people who celebrated the murder of their children with Glee seems again, foolhardy.
I’m not expecting harmony immediately, I’m advocating for a political project with outside pressure to get to it eventually. Israelis like to talk about deradicalization of the Palestinians, but Israeli society itself needs to be deradicalized.
There is nothing cosmically exceptional about this conflict compared to other conflicts. If Bosnia and Herzegovina can be a society for Bosniak, Serbs and Croats and if Rwanda can find reconciliation after a genocide, so can Palestinians and Israelis.
This: “Why Rwanda is held up as a model for reconciliation, 26 years after genocide” | CBC Radio https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/why-rwanda-is-held-up-as-a-model-for-reconciliation-26-years-after-genocide-1.5842139
If we can’t imagine this horizon and if we don’t have the courage to work for it, what are we even doing? If all we can imagine is death and hatred, we are creating a self fulfilling prophecy and precluding ever going beyond it. We need moral courage and ambition, that’s all I’m saying.
Israel is already a one state solution, it contols all the territory from the river to the sea, and commiting apartheid and genocide.
End apartheid and you have a single state where everyone is free.
One apartheid state is no viable.
I may be naive but why wouldn’t a UN governed state not be in the best interest for all parties? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_separatum_(Jerusalem)
The Mandate for Palestine was pretty much that and it utterly failed.
„UN governed state“ means occupation and foreign rule. What country wants to send soldiers and police to a country where both major populations will hate you.
Oh geeze, an United Nations governed state is an entirely different can of worms. Though one does wonder what difference there will be between that and just Israel considering the amount of influence they have on the UN.
Though one does wonder what difference there will be between that and just Israel considering the amount of influence they have on the UN.
The only real influence Israel has on the UN is the US veto, though. The UN regularly castigates Israel for its horrors.
United Nation members regular castigate Israel for its Horrors. Official action from the organization as a whole is almost zero. Also the unlimited and overwhelming veto is a massive amount of influence. Enough so that it makes the rest of the UN virtually irrelevant. Also something tells me if for some reason the US change its mind the UK would happily step in and fulfill that role.
Official action from the organization as a whole is almost zero.
… because the UN has very little power as a whole.
Meaning it’d be very ineffective at governing a nation particularly one with extreme special interests and extreme ethnic tension.
My point is only that Israel does not have much influence over the UN.
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Thanks to Netanyahu and his goonies (such as Trump and Starmer) the word anti-semitist has lost all meaning.
Maybe to you? It’s pretty clear. The fact that this inoffensive meme says not to be anti semitic and you had to jump in with a reason to justify and blame someone else for the anti semitism is telling
perhaps even more directly to the point:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaponization_of_antisemitism
I don’t think just to me. Extreme lobbying has brought us to a situation where they are now labelling genocide criticism as anti-semitic and illegal. So yea that builds some unpleasant reflex in people and its clear who is to blame for.
Im extra sensitive and aware of it. I’m indigenous but married to a Jewish woman. She’s in no way Israeli and is not political but she’s experienced anti semitism this past year more than any other. She’s been harassed outside of the Jewish family centre by protests, why are there protests in front of the Jewish centres?? Why do people equate all Jews on earth with Israel.
Not just that, nobody here seems to differentiate between Netanyahu and all Israelis as a whole, yet you guys get mad when I blame all Americans for trump
Well I mean anti semitist people (in real sense) is one type of shit and people who use the word antisemitism to justify their genocidal agenda is another type of shit. I wish we could put them all in the same bag and shoot them to space.
But the fact that I have to write (in the real sense) next to my comment about antisemitism is already demonstrating the damage the dickhead Netanyahu’s and Zionist lobbies’ approach is causing. It used to be a blame that sent shivers down people’s spine. Now not as much.
Antisemitism is hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group.
Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”)., where antizionism is the opposition to Israeli nationalism.
Everyone keeps conflating these two, and it’s quite annoying. And I’ll say it louder for the people in the back: OPPOSING ISRAEL’S INDISCRIMINATE GENOCIDE IS NOT ANTISEMITISM. It is in no reference to Jews, either as a religion or a race, it is towards the Israeli government and their nationalistic followers that allow for the slaughter of men, women, and children.
Everyone keeps conflating these two, and it’s quite annoying. And I’ll say it louder for the people in the back: OPPOSING ISRAEL’S INDISCRIMINATE GENOCIDE IS NOT ANTISEMITISM. It is in no reference to Jews, either as a religion or a race, it is towards the Israeli government and their nationalistic followers that allow for the slaughter of men, women, and children.
No, but as people in this very thread have shown, there are those who use antizionism to justify antisemitism. Advocating for the genocide of Israeli Jews is antisemitic, regardless of the fact that the Israeli government is likewise genocidal.
The answer to “The Nazis are rounding people up in camps to murder them!” is not “Well, let’s just round up all the Germans in camps and murder them.” Likewise, the answer to “Israel is trying to expel or murder all Palestinians from the land of their birth!” is not “Well, let’s expel or murder all Israelis from the land of their birth.”
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Idk, any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn’t born there) is a first generation colonizer, surely it’s not anti-semetic to call for that specific subgroup’s relocation, no?
any Israeli citizen currently living there (that wasn’t born there) is a first generation colonizer
Israel is a country of refugees. They came in many waves fleeing from pogroms in the Russian Empire, persecution in Yemen, the Holocaust, the Farhud in Iraq, and so on. They didn’t come to a land of opportunity to become rich like in the USA. They came looking for a safe place to live, not a persecuted minority for once, a place that would have them. Most did not have any other place to go.
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Over 70% of Israelis were born in Israel.
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Many of the remainder were young at the age of immigration, as most immigrants to Israel were historically not single working folk, but already-established families.
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Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).
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A large proportion of those remaining are from countries which are either legitimately deeply antisemitic or no longer exist (such as emigrants from the Soviet Union).
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Would you advocate that policy of “Go back where you came from!” for the immigrants of any other country on earth?
Saying that Israelis can be expelled ‘back to Europe’ is not only ethnic cleansing, but utterly insane and racist besides.
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
Also the Palestinians who were also born on that land and driven out, should then not have the right to return? This is just Imperialism and Apartheid with extra steps.
Unless the current illegal occupiers buy the land from the legitimate owners at a fair price and compensate the legitimate owners for the time of the illegal occupation, they have no right to remain on that land.
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
… how much ‘compensation’ do you think modern Germany is paying out to the descendants of Holocaust survivors, again?
Also the Palestinians who were also born on that land and driven out, should then not have the right to return?
Yes, they should.
Unless the current illegal occupiers buy the land from the legitimate owners at a fair price and compensate the legitimate owners for the time of the illegal occupation, they have no right to remain on that land.
Can’t wait til you find out that your own land was once owned by another nation. Can’t wait til we dissolve Germany, strip all the land from the so-called ‘Germans’ which inhabit it, and send ‘foreign’ Germans back to the land they came from, those filthy immigrants.
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… how much ‘compensation’ do you think modern Germany is paying out to the descendants of Holocaust survivors, again?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_Conference
The Conference continually negotiates to expand and liberalize eligibility criteria in order to include additional victims in the programs. In 1978, after 25 years of payments, the total Federal Republic of Germany compensation payments amounted to 53 billion Deutsch Marks.[7] Payments from some programs continue to this day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Restitution_Laws
The BErG/BEG deals with compensatory payments for suffered personal damage, while the BRüG covers restitutions for expropriated property. Claimants had to file their claims in order to receive payments; the term for filing claims under the BEG expired on 31 December 1969.[1]
After the fall of the German Democratic Republic and the reunification of Germany in 1990, German authorities had to wrestle with the enormous complexity of applying these laws and former GDR law in addressing property claims.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiedergutmachung
The sum would amount, through the years, to over 100 billion Deutsche Mark.
To give a ballpark, lets assume 1975 as the baseline for the inflation.
Using this calculator this is equivalent to about 172 billion Euros in todays value.
Note that this sum does not included the houses and land, that was returned to its rightful Jewish owners or their inheritors.
As for “my own land”. I don’t own any land and i have been paying rent ever since i left my parents house. If any of the landlords i paid to has stolen this land, they absolutely should pay the rightful owners.
Wiedergutmachung (German pronunciation: [viːdɐˈɡuːtˌmaxʊŋ] ⓘ; German: “compensation”, “restitution”, lit: “make good again”) refers to the reparations that the German government agreed to pay in 1953 **to the direct survivors of the Holocaust, and to those who were made to work at forced labour camps or who otherwise became victims of the Nazis. **
As of 2012, the Claims Conference had administered the following programs, which provide direct payments to Jewish victims of Nazi persecution.
The German Restitution Laws were a series of laws passed in the 1950s in West Germany regulating the restitution of lost property and the payment of damages to victims of the Nazi persecution in the period 1933 to 1945.
I ask about modern Germany paying out to descendants of Holocaust survivors, which was the claim you made, specifically, in attempting to attack Israelis born in Israel as ‘not real’, and you point me to Germany paying out money to literal Holocaust survivors. Fantastic. Definitely not bullshitting to justify deeply antisemitic ideas. Perhaps you and Elon Musk would get along well.
As for “my own land”. I don’t own any land and i have been paying rent ever since i left my parents house. If any of the landlords i paid to has stolen this land, they absolutely should pay the rightful owners.
What makes you think you have a right to benefit from renting stolen land? What makes you think that you should be allowed to reside on stolen land, colonizer? You should be shipped back to the country of your ancestors, by your own argument.
The restitution of stolen property also goes to the descendants.
The Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, or Claims Conference, represents the world’s Jews in negotiating for compensation and restitution for victims of Nazi persecution and their heirs.
Literally the first two sentences of the linked Wikipedia article.
I find it shocking how you are wildly attacking people for pointing out facts that contradict your position.
Literally the first two sentences of the linked Wikipedia article.
I apologize for actually reading the article. Do you know what an ‘heir’ is, or do you think it’s just any descendant?
I find it shocking how you are wildly attacking people for pointing out facts that contradict your position.
And I find it shocking that you’re repeating antisemitic lines about deporting Jews to the land of their ancestors straight out of the Nazi playbook, but here we fucking are.
Again, what makes you think you have a right to benefit from renting stolen land? What makes you think that you should be allowed to reside on stolen land, colonizer? You should be shipped back to the country of your ancestors, by your own argument.
Many of those immigrants are not European (or North American).
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi from the Middle East.
- Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Okay.
- Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.
Reminder that I asked a question to clarify whether or not my position, which is not the same as the position your meme is criticizing. So I don’t really see why you think it’s necessary to attribute that position to me.
I’ll repeat what I said specifically so you can clarify whether or not MY specific, NUANCED position is also problematic.
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
Ok, irrelevent, I already specified non-native citizens. Don’t bring it up again if you’re interested in intellectually honest conversation.
Clarifying that most Israelis are native-born is absolutely relevant when discussing expulsion of non-native Israelis. People often cloak their ethnic cleansing shitheadery by implying that most Israelis are immigrants, without acknowledging that the reverse is the truth.
Yes, for any country that is actively apartheid and actively trying to further solidify that apartheid by shipping in immigrants based on ethnicity.
So when Ukraine takes back Crimea and the Donbass, you’re in support of ethnically cleansing anyone who wasn’t born there?
For a more extreme example, would you take this position for the US? There’s still an ongoing situation of unequal treatment of the Native population on reservations; surely you wouldn’t allow filthy colonizers to remain just because they were immigrants?
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip?
No more than it would be fair to expel immigrants of any other nation based on ethnic origin. At most, I would regard extremely recent immigrants (~5 years, maybe) as negotiable in practical terms, if distasteful and a violation of the treatment of human beings equally, rather than trying to apply some insane notion of ethnic correctness to the ‘crime’ of existing.
People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers? Forget those other people. I am not a bad faith nazi trying to get you to conflate the two groups and walk into some gotcha question. Just answer the actual question that I am posing.
What would you call people who are invited in by the native-born population of a country which also run its legitimate government? Immigrants, or colonizers?
Okay, that’s great, I already clarified my position beyond that, so I will repeat that in this conversation it is irrelevant! We can keep talking in circles about its relevance to the conversation if you like, but it seems pointless, since again, it is irrelevant to the conversation (beyond you making a point to observers I guess!)
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race? Because if so… then yes? Like are there native citizens being displaced by the government because people of a specific ethnicity want to move there? Educate me pls
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them? It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing. The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
Is the government actively colonizing? There’s your answer.
Sorry, I am fairly ignorant to geopolitics, so can you clarify? It sounds like you are almost definitely asking me some sort of gotcha question when the answer is really clear. So are Crimea and the Donbass currently apartheid states that are intentionally bringing in immigrants of a particular race?
Yes, the Russian government has made extensive efforts to displace Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars in the occupied territories in favor of Russian residents.
Yeah, people that are actively colonizing in America should be held under the same scrutiny lmao. You’re not going to find me to be a hypocrite. Natives that are actively being displaced by immigrants should have their land returned to them.
So you’re in favor of deporting all immigrants in America? That seems non-intuitive.
Based on ethnic origin? Are you really still putting words in my mouth? Are you really that incapable of honest discussion?
I’m sorry, are we deporting Palestinian immigrants as well? Yes, based on ethnic origin. Have you not thought out your own position?
The crime isn’t existing, it’s actively moving to and displacing a native population by unhousing them?
Which most immigrants to Israel aren’t doing, as Israel’s internationally recognized territory is overwhelmingly populated by Jewish Israelis and wherein Palestinian natives haven’t lived, largely, for generations.
It’s also NOT ethnic cleansing.
Forcibly deporting people from a region for their ethnicity is literally fucking ethnic cleansing. Just because you think it’s ‘good’ ethnic cleansing, being in response to ‘bad’ ethnic cleansing, doesn’t make it not fucking ethnic cleansing.
The rhetoric you’re using to accuse me of being pro-“ethnic cleansing” is as bad as the rhetoric used to accuse anyone calling out genocide as being anti-semitic. I’m not saying we should remove all the Jewish people from Israel. The INSTANT that I specified a subgroup with nuanced reasoning, “ethnic cleansing” stopped being a viable thing for you to argue against me with. Sorry.
“Oh, it’s only a SUBGROUP I want to ethnically cleanse! The GOOD ONES can stay!”
Christ. I guess Israel didn’t engage in ethnic cleansing either, since it let some ‘good Arabs’ stay.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes? The ONLY reason ethnicity comes into it (for the sake of my argument anyway, I understand there are nazis out there that are using this to dogwhistle) is because the state is basing it on ethnicity. If they were actively bringing in Palestinians to displace Palestinians, then yes, we would be relocating those immigrants as well. Of course, that’s not happening, and it makes no sense to even say it.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
Yeah, man, that would be ethnic cleansing. Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Oh… you’re taking problem with that. Because it’s ethnic cleansing to relocate a subgroup of people, that might happen to be of the same ethnicity, based on their specific actions. For sure, man.
To compare the relocation of colonizers to the active, systemic displacement, removal, and eradication of a group of people based on their ethnicity?
You are a bad joke.
Okay, so regarding your first point, I still don’t understand why you would think I would be against relocating those Russian residents? I’m not a tankie lol
… because people are generally in agreement that mass expulsions of civilians based on ethnicity is difficult to justify morally and nearly impossible to execute humanely?
I’m in favor of deporting people that are displacing other people from their homes. Do you really want to try and make the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants in America are displacing people from their homes? Lmfao.
I’m sorry, you’re making the sweeping generalization that all modern immigrants to Israel are displacing people from their homes. What’s the difference here, exactly?
How many times do I need to repeat myself that I am referring to a specific subgroup that is displacing people from their homes?
You specified that the people you were counting as colonizers were recent, adult immigrants to Israel from Europe.
My understanding is that the Israeli government is, or was, actively colonizing parts of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or are you continuing to DEFEND A GROUP OF PEOPLE I’M NOT REFERRING TO?
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The people it’s colonizing Palestine with are largely native-born Israelis, not immigrants to Israel.
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Why are you advocating for deporting immigrants to Israel, from Israel, for the crime of other Israelis settling on Palestinian land?
Good thing I said there is a subgroup of people!
Alright, let me quote you:
So, based on the new evidence, I’ll even adjust what I’m saying. Is it fair, then, to call for the relocation of dual citizens, that come from countries like the US or UK, who moved into the country as an adult after visiting Israel on their birthright trip? People who I would consider to be first generation colonizers?
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Seems like people assume that end of WW2 signaled some magic switch in European antisemitism.
Jews often couldn’t return home, because it was either destroyed or other people settled here. Some stories ended in murders of said Jews trying to return home.
Israel at that point had to happen, because nobody really cared about what happens to Jews now, and nobody really cared to bring people like Adolf Eichmann to justice.
That said, modern Israel is a fascist country. But those that doubt reasons for its very creation are absolutely misled.
Israel at that point had to happen, because nobody really cared about what happens to Jews now, and nobody really cared to bring people like Adolf Eichmann to justice.
So you’re either woefully misinformed or defending the Nakba. Which is it?
Israel didn’t ‘have’ to happen at that point. Israel ‘happening’ has much more to do with Interwar politics, not WW2 - the vast majority of those present in Israel at the date of its creation were those who engaged in colonization projects during the British Mandate of Palestine, with Jewish survivors of WW2 largely not emigrating until after the state of Israel had been formed.
You can argue that the desire to escape European antisemitism was valid, but Zionism, as a project, was never all that wholesome in practical terms. From the start of the British Mandate after WW1, Zionist settlers were very clear that they envisioned their colonization in terms that European colonizers would have been familiar with - the suppression of the indigenous population under the presumption that they brought ‘real’ and racially superior civilization - even though the post-WW1 world order had become increasingly hostile to such notions even from Christian Europeans.
I do not doubt that Zionism as a project is evil, with parts that go about removing Arabs from Palestine.
But I still doubt it would succeed as it did if interwar and WW2 antisemitism spike didn’t happen (and not like it was all good pre-WW1, Russian Beilis trial as prime example).
It “had” to happen simply because everyone was keen on giving Jews ample reasons not to stay where they were chronically unsafe.
This is the innate issue with creating an ethno-state, it makes it difficult to delineate grievances between ethnicity and state. I don’t know what the solution is, but I find it understandable that some people would agree with expulsion.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
I don’t think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
… yes.
Is Israel paying for people to immigrate to Israel with the purpose of expanding the Israeli state not an ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?
People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.
I don’t think you can really say these beliefs are born out of antisemitism, not when the Israeli state purposely engages in ethnic superiority based policy.
“It’s not racism if they were racist first.”
Great. Fucking fantastic. Glad we’ve learned absolutely nothing.
Fucking insanity.
… yes.
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.
Lol, they are occupying Gaza right now… Just because the immigrants aren’t the ones moving into the Lebensraum doesn’t mean that it isn’t the states goal to expand the population to the point where they demand more living space.
“It’s not racism if they were racist first.”
My dude… My point is that people are critical of an ethno-state, which inherently creates policy based on serving that ethnicity at the expense of others. If you criticize that policy it’s not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism.
Is it racist against Germans to say they shouldn’t have invaded Poland, Or to kick out Germans who immigrated to Austria after they invaded? You aren’t really accounting that these are responses to a nation currently coming genocide, not just people hating an ethnicity for no particular reason.
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
Holy fucking shit, how is it that you are incapable of conceiving any way of punishing a government that isn’t “Ethnic cleansing” or “Genocide via murder”?!
Lol, they are occupying Gaza right now… Just because the immigrants aren’t the ones moving into the Lebensraum doesn’t mean that it isn’t the states goal to expand the population to the point where they demand more living space.
Oh, of course, that completely explains why Israelis have to be ethnically cleansed, thank you for informing me on the moral and practical necessity of genocide when it’s against Bad Ethnicity.
My dude… My point is that people are critical of an ethno-state, which inherently creates policy based on serving that ethnicity at the expense of others. If you criticize that policy it’s not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism.
“People are just being critical of an ethnostate when they advocate for ethnic cleansing and genocide!”
What the ever-loving fuck. You’re sitting here, not just ‘criticizing’ the horrific policies of the Israeli state, but outright advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Israel of Israeli Jews, and you have the gall to claim it’s “not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism”?
Is it racist against Germans to say they shouldn’t have invaded Poland,
Nice try, but that’s not what you’re saying here. If I may quote you in this very same fucking comment after it was pointed out that expelling people based on their ethnicity is actually kind of fucking horrific:
So there’s no retribution against Israel that’s not antisemitism? I mean expulsion is probably better than the alternative? What do you believe should be the response? Or do we just let a genocide continue without any consequence?
Or to kick out Germans who immigrated to Austria after they invaded?
You do realize that the entire ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2 is a massive atrocity that occurred and a subject of intense study by historians and sociologists, right?
No, no, what am I saying? Ethnic cleansing is a good and wholesome response for the crimes of a country. That’s why Nazi Germany was justified in ethnically cleansing Alsace-Lorraine! Oh, fuck, wait, no, that’s bad. That’s why Israel was justified in ethnically cleansing Palestinians! No, wait, that’s bad too. Oh, wait, I have it! That’s why Palestine would be justified in ethnically cleansing Israel! There! GOOD ethnic cleansing to go against all that BAD ethnic cleansing!
You aren’t really accounting that these are responses to a nation currently coming genocide, not just people hating an ethnicity for no particular reason.
“Israel is committing genocide, therefore, it’s okay to genocide Israelis!”
Fucking lunacy.
Holy fucking shit, how is it that you are incapable of conceiving any way of punishing a government that isn’t “Ethnic cleansing” or “Genocide via murder”?!
Funny that your definition of ethnic cleansing is dependent on who’s doing it. Removing an occupying force…ethnic cleansing. Israel occupying Gaza…not an ethnic cleansing. Interesting.
Oh, of course, that completely explains why Israelis have to be ethnically cleansed, thank you for informing me on the moral and practical necessity of genocide when it’s against Bad Ethnicity.
“People immigrating to Israel, in majority Jewish Israeli areas, where the Israeli state is recognized as having jurisdiction by international law and consensus, is not fucking ethnic cleansing, no.”
Is what I responded too…your hysterics are not an argument.
People are just being critical of an ethnostate when they advocate for ethnic cleansing and genocide!"
Lol, who is calling for a genocide of Israelis? Your definition of ethnic cleansing is also not on solid ground. Deporting the colonizing forces of a hostile state who is actively doing a genocide isn’t exactly an "ethnic cleansing ".
You’re sitting here, not just ‘criticizing’ the horrific policies of the Israeli state, but outright advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Israel of Israeli Jews, and you have the gall to claim it’s “not racism, it’s criticizing a government built on racism”?
Again…with the hyperbole. Plus I never even advocated the removal of Jews from Israel. I said I can understand why Palestinians would want that.
You do realize that the entire ethnic cleansing of Germans after WW2 is a massive atrocity that occurred and a subject of intense study by historians and sociologists, right?
Again… You are conflating nationality with ethnicity…which is why ethno-states are wrong. Russians didn’t kill Germans because of their ethnicity, they killed Germans because the German nation did so many war crimes during their invasion.
no, what am I saying? Ethnic cleansing is a good and wholesome response for the crimes of a country. That’s why Nazi Germany was justified in ethnically cleansing Alsace-Lorraine! Oh, fuck, wait, no, that’s bad. That’s why Israel was justified in ethnically cleansing Palestinians! No, wait, that’s bad too. Oh, wait, I have it! That’s why Palestine would be justified in ethnically cleansing Israel! There! GOOD ethnic cleansing to go against all that BAD ethnic cleansing!
You’re conflating ethnic cleansing with genocide… And you are utilizing a very dubious definition of ethnic cleansing to begin with.
Israel is committing genocide, therefore, it’s okay to genocide Israelis!"
Oh yeah…because Palestinians wanting Israelis to immigrate back to Europe is the same as a genocide.
Again, I don’t really think you are acknowledging the fact that an apartheid ethno-state is genociding a people who used to own the land that ethno-state is founded upon.
Is really that hard to understand why a Palestinian would want Israelis to go away?
By the way, labeling decolonization as genocide is an age old tactic of those who benefit from colonialism
Funny that your definition of ethnic cleansing is dependent on who’s doing it. Removing an occupying force…ethnic cleansing. Israel occupying Gaza…not an ethnic cleansing. Interesting.
I literally call Israel’s actions genocide several times in this very thread.
Do you need a remedial literacy class or something?
Oh yeah…because Palestinians wanting Israelis to immigrate back to Europe is the same as a genocide.
Jesus fucking Christ. Thank you for demonstrating my point, Mirror Hasbara.
Also you’re a racist for constantly conflating “Israeli” and “Jewish person” throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Also you’re a racist for constantly conflating “Israeli” and “Jewish person” throughout this conversation and attempting to project that conflation on me. Thanks.
Lord.
You literally have been doing that lmfao
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of “go back where you came from” to Nazi immigrants? Because setting aside the ethnic side, there’s no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren’t hopelessly Zionist.
Regarding 5: If you were in Argentina in the 50s, would you support a policy of “go back where you came from” to Nazi immigrants?
No, but I would 100% support a policy of “Anyone who the Hague or Israel (ha, my enemy’s enemy) suspects of crimes of any sort gets a free ticket and a trial anytime either of them want to make a check of things.”
Once people have established roots in a place, uprooting them should only be done by proper channels or in the most extreme of circumstances. Germans in Argentina, whatever their ideological background, are not a serious threat to the polity; the polity must deal with them as it would deal with any foreign immigrants, not suddenly decide that “Bad Ethnicity” must be deported.
Much more concerning would have been the dual issues of the Argentinian government letting them in in the first place, and, for that matter, specifically assisting Nazi war criminals in obscuring their identity and escaping justice.
Because setting aside the ethnic side, there’s no way the vast majority of first-generation immigrants to Israel aren’t hopelessly Zionist
Zionist in which sense? Zionist in the sense of supporting Israel’s existence, almost certainly - Zionist in the sense of supporting the insane Greater Israel-style politics of modern colonization of Palestine and genocide, less certainly. Israeli immigrants are generally less sanguine about Palestinian genocide than native-born Israelis.
That… is fair enough.
-
If it’s antisemitic to call out and despise those that support the genocide of innocent children and civilians, then I’m a proud antisemite. That hill I WILL die on.
No, that’s not antisemitic in the least. Israel is committing a genocide, and it should be treated as a pariah state and all measures possible employed against it to pressure it to cease.
What is antisemitic is, as mentioned in the title and seen advocated by people in this very comment section, advocating for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Israel, especially when combined with the bizarre notion that Israel-born Israelis can just be shipped back to where their ancestors came from in Europe, like some bizarre mirror image of the Nazis in the 1930s planning to ethnically cleanse Germany of Jews by shipping them to where their ancestors came from in Palestine.
with the bizarre notion that Israel-born Israelis can just be shipped back to where their ancestors came from in Europe
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi who came from Middle Eastern countries. They are also the political base of Likud and other right wingers. Itamar Ben Gvir is an Iraqi Jew for example. The Ashkenazi (European) Jews are more likely to be center and left.
Of course Western activists don’t know any of that. For them Israelis = white = European = evil, Palestinians = brown = good is the only model to understand the world. Palestinians and Jewish Israelis are indistinguishable just from looks. Both have pretty varied phenotypes from blond to black.
and all measures possible employed against it to pressure it to cease.
Including Palestinian military action and guerilla war, correct?
Yes. Unironically, critical support for suicide bombing of military targets. The only restraints I have to supporting Palestinian action are moral restraints - ie that while civilian collateral casualties are acceptable, such as during rocket barrages of legitimate targets, civilians should not be specifically targeted.
Pretty big difference between despising someone and wishing for an ethnic cleansing.
I do not think this is the point they were making, like at all.
Is it not? This meme says you’re allowed to criticize the government of Israel, but I’m taking it one step further and criticizing the population of Israel that supports killing babies, children, women, and innocents.
There’s a pretty big difference between criticizing Nazis and saying and entire population should be expelled.
The meme is literally, explicitly, saying the opposite. That’s not antisemitic.
Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn’t be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, “guess I’m anti-semitic now”, and really let loose.
That’s a very popular strawman you have there.
Israelis have been protesting the war and the Israeli government lots and consistently, including members of the IDF.
Any criticism of the Israeli government, no matter how milquetoast, gets called anti-semitic by defenders, folks shouldn’t be shocked when people shrug after a while, say, “guess I’m anti-semitic now”, and really let loose.
Uh, except for the bit where ‘letting loose’ is ‘revealing that they actually are antisemitic’. I generally assume that people, and especially left-leaning people, aren’t antisemitic even if Israel critiques them as such; to find out that a very nonzero amount actually are, and a much larger amount are willing to endorse or tolerate those antisemitic views, is deeply disturbing.
generally assume that people, and especially left-leaning people, aren’t antisemitic even if Israel critiques them as such
Aa a German leftist I cannot assume that. For example, German leftists placed a bomb at a Holocaust memorial event in a jewish community center in 1969. And during the hijacking of an Air France flight the RZ separated the passengers and kept only those with Israeli passports or “jewish sounding names” etc. as hostages (German Wikipedia, German article with quotes from RZ members).
Fun fact: two distinct events from 1969 and 1976 might not accurately represent the Left in 2025.
For one thing, everyone who participated in those atrocious acts are elderly or dead now. Most of the Left are neither.
Fun fact: two distinct events from 1969 and 1976 might not accurately represent the Left in 2025.
I never said they did. But they demonstrate that we can’t just assume that people aren’t antisemitic just because they are left(-leaning). Unless of course you don’t want to learn from history.
I never said they did.
You very heavily implied it, though.
But they demonstrate that we can’t just assume that people aren’t antisemitic just because they are left(-leaning)
Sure. Just like we can’t assume that people from Nepal don’t pollute. It’s not the norm or even something of heightened risk compared to other demographics.
Unless of course you don’t want to learn from history.
That’s rich coming from someone trying his best to leap to illogical conclusions based on two events that are specifically remarkable for being atypical.
I do think that most of the left wing people that ever lived are dead.
That’s very very true. However, none of the current Left is.
That is also very true.
“No true leftist is antisemitic.”
(Presents several clear counterexamples)
“Well, that’s the exception. They are not true leftists!”
“No true leftist is antisemitic.”
A strawman inventing a no true Scotsman? That’s impressively fallacious 😄
I didn’t and indeed have never claimed that there are any antisemites on the Left. Unfortunately, a lot of people on the Left are starting from the point of “the country (incorrectly) claiming to be representative of all Jewdom has been committing unspeakable atrocities for a century” and being misled from there down rabbit holes that sometimes go all the way to ACTUALLY antisemitic conspiracy theory nonsense.
That being said, those people are a tiny minority, and your two examples from the days of disco and earlier don’t prove otherwise.
If the argument that being antisemitic precludes you from being a leftist, that’s not a fallacy. If you don’t abide by a set of beliefs, then you are not a follower of those beliefs.
I’m not a Scotsman because I’m not from Scotland.
Similarly, I don’t think most libertarians are true libertarians because they don’t care about liberties except their own. And if that’s the definition of libertarian, then everyone is a libertarian.
The mortal enemy of the true scotsman argument: words mean things.
This is the same logic as “people have been calling me a Nazi, so now I am calling myself a Nazi”.
So glad the literal antisemites came out on this post to play apologist for ethnically cleansing Israeli Jews ‘back where they came from’ in Europe for the crime of being born in Israel. I’m trying to think of how this differs from the Nazis literally want to deport Jews to Israel, but I’m coming up with a blank.
I guess there must be something substantially different, though, because obviously these brave anti-imperialists would never be antisemites. /s
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All of the people I’ve seen advocating that are talking about the people who were not born in Israel.
Is it really ethnic cleansing when the ethno-state they built continues to genocide their neighbors with the approval of the vast majority of its citizens?
By that logic that birth in Israel gives the right to stay there, this would in turn mean that this birth revokes the right to compensation for the ancestors that were murdered in the Holocaust or survived it and chose not to go back to Germany.
You cant have it both.
Typical Israeli apologist, dreaming of a hypothetical genocide of Israeli Jews when there’s an actual genocide being committed by the zionists. Do you ever get tired of being a victim?
Sorry that you think genocide is okay so long as it’s Good Genocide, unlike the Bad Genocide Israel is currently committing.
Some of us think genocide is bad, just on principle. Yes, really.
There you go again, making shit up in your head. Makes me think that you might not actually believe those words and just want to distract from the daily murder of innocent Palestinian people by reframing the poor poor Israelis that are suffering on stolen land. What a joke.
I love that ethnic cleansing is being defended in this very thread and your claim is that I’m making up these responses. Like, do you not own a pair of eyes? Or is it just too much fun playing mirror Hasbara?
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Nuance and subtlety? Not on my lemmy!
Jewish people and groups around the world need to issue strong rejection of Israel’s actions.
If they don’t, i’m very concerned that Israel’s crimes will fall back on them in the future.
Condemnation of Israel’s actions won’t protect Jews around the world.
It will protect them from the free palestine crowd, but not from anti-semites. Is there a downside though?
The free palestine crowd contains and covers for antisemites among their ranks.
Well yeah, obviously. There are anti-semites everywhere. I meant those whose motivations are “free palestine,” which in my estimate is the main motivation of the free palestine crowd when viewed as a whole – not antisemitism. I don’t mean to say that there don’t exist people who are aligned with free-palestine just because they’re anti-semitic. But there’s no protection from those people either way – so, no downside.
Are you asking every Chinese person to denounce China‘s government for the Uyghurs or Tibet?
No, why?
Why are you asking every Jew to it then?
I’m sure contains, though I doubt there’s a complete overlap, not covers for. People who want a literal genocide to end aren’t automatically antisemites or antisemite apologists. Nor are antisemites, especially Trumper antisemites, automatically in favor of Palestine.
Do you think it’s safer to support genocide?
Yeah, I don’t know how to solve the issues of two separate families feeling ownership for the same location (fifty years ago, a Palestinian family including several living members was evicted from a home, and an Israeli couple moved in and then died, leaving their property to their children who played no role in taking the property from the Palestinians), but the solution is not to deport all of the Israelis from the region.
My first instinct would be that the government would need to build a LOT of desirable housing and offer a cash incentive to all current and former residents to cede ownership claims to other properties in exchange for the deed to one of the newer properties, but it immediately occurs to me that the wealth difference between the average Palestinian family and the average Israeli family is probably large enough that there would essentially be a self-selection bias. Especially given the fact that poverty and food insecurity reduce our ability to make good financial decisions.
I can’t think of a resolution for that situation that doesn’t involve someone feeling resentful. I’m not saying they have equal claim- but I know that the descendants of settlers are also people, who don’t want to be evicted from the (stolen) houses in which they were raised, and sowing resentment has not helped the region in the past.
Palestinians that lived in what is now Israel are very old and very few in number now. Israelis won’t feel safe with having Palestinians moving into their neighbourhoods after what happened on October 7 for at least another generation.
So right of return is dead now. Hamas killed it.
But there are the settlements. Israel has returned land from settlements to Palestinians in the past. They did this in on part of Palestine… Gaza. And there was never any problems from Gaza ever again after that, right? Nope, what happened was a plurality of Palestinians voted for Hamas and once they were in power there weren’t any more elections in Gaza.
The problem mostly stems around poor leadership. Given their past experiences with attempts to exchange land for peace always ending in Palestinians seeing it as a sign of weakness, Israelis turned to Netanyahu who sucks. Palestinians have been convinced they should hate Israelis so they turn to Hamas (fascists who use hatred as tool to gain and maintain power). Fatah is an alternative, but they are corrupt and since it’s easy to blame Israel for everything there’s no incentive to root out corruption.
But there are plenty of Israelis that don’t like Netanyahu. There are plenty of Palestinians that are against Hamas. You just won’t hear about them much on lemmy because people here tend to think of countries as “good guys” and “bad guys” and discussing internal politics of countries goes against the simple narratives people like.
And we should not ignore the problem of Iran’s government. There obviously isn’t going to much of chance for peace if there’s a country in the region that will send rockets to whatever faction is willing to fire them at Israel. Before October 7, we were very close to seeing official recognition of Israel by the Saudis and normalization of relations. This kind of thing isn’t in Iran’s interests and they have proxies that can attack Israel so…
October 7 was obviously beyond previous attacks but it’s been an ongoing conflict between Israel and Iran’s proxies for decades. So how do you convince an authoritarian theocratic regime to chill out on a country their whole propaganda system has villainized for decades? So… once again bad leaders.
So yeah… we could only wish this was just a land for peace kind of problem. That’s hard to solve to be sure, but nothing compared to the complexities involved with the various factions throughout the region.
I’m sure that instances like these far outweigh the exact opposite
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I mean, eminent domain exists for this reason, but generally, compensation for stolen property is the norm because of the difficulty of dealing with inheritances and the like several steps removed from the original crime.
Recognizing the validity of residency is not the same as recognizing privilege. “You can stay under the same criteria as anyone else, because we aren’t here to engage in ethnic cleansing” and “Your property is sacrosanct and cannot be touched under any circumstances” are two different concepts, after all.
Oh, there are a thousand ways they could improve their current way of handling it. I just don’t know what the best way would be, though it would definitely involve eminent domain. I guess a lottery system for determining which families get the ancestral home?
I used to take solace in the fact that people smarter than I were in charge of this, so they could do better than that as a solution, but I’m increasingly skeptical that they actually will.
One of the most horrific things to learn in life is that not only are people in power often shitheads, they’re often stupid shitheads as well.
It’s… frustrating when examining policy discussions on an academic level.
By this logic Germans would not have had to give back the property that the Nazis robbed from the Jews. This is complete nonsense.
You cannot inherit legally, what was robbed from someone else. The legal ownership belongs to the original owners or their inheritors.
Any Israeli living in a house or on land they robbed, must either leave or buy it from the legitimate owners at a fair price. Irrespective of that the legitimate owners must also be fully compensated for the inability to use their land for all the years it was kept from them.
This is the legal and just way. Any other way invites more crimes and crimes against humanity as it rewards the criminals including by rewarding their descendants.
I can’t see descendants of settlers who are en masse being kicked out of their homes and heavily taxed coming together to peacefully build a society with the people whom they ceded their homes to and whom they’re paying those reparations. Can you? How would you go about it without making them so resentful that they either refuse to help rebuild or start attacking the institutions of the new single state?
I see the philosophical balance your solution would bring and it’s what I would want to do if I suddenly found myself a settler/settler’s descendant, but I don’t think enforcing it will lead to lasting peace. Perhaps with an education system that truly integrates children and teaches all of their history, without whitewashing any of it. But I think there’s a very strong cultural attachment in Israel to homeschooling, and don’t know if enforcing public schooling would create further resentment.
It is quite simple. If they dont comply with the law, they face criminal punishment. If they are unwilling to compensate the victims of their land robbery, then all their assets, including abroad, need to be seized and given to their victims.
The sentimentalities of the criminals can not be a detriment to the rights of the victims. Either the criminals obey and work to resocialize, or they face additional punishment.
As the IDF is a genocidal terror organization Israelis, who largely served in that terror organization, are already getting a very good deal, if they are not imprisoned for multiple decades and only the worst offenders are held criminally liable.
They should rejoice at the opportunity given to them to only repay their victims for the damage they have done.
I don’t think it’s very simple at all.
According to the CBS, about 40% of Jews in Israel were born to a father also born in Israel. Given the relative youth of the Israeli population and the fact that it’s been nearly 80 years since Mandatory Palestine existed, the number is probably quite a bit higher (especially because that number only relates to the fathers, not the mothers), but even if only 60% of Israeli Jews are descendants of settlers, that’s nearly 5 million people. Out of a total population of about 15 million people living in Israel and Palestine combined.
A poll published in may showed that more than 80% and more than half of all Israelis support forced expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and forced expulsion of Arabs from Israel, respectively. That’s five and eight million people. (The poll itself was only published in Hebrew, but I think this is the link).
How can a unified, peaceful country actually be created without “giving into their sentimentality” when somewhere between a third and over half of them feel that way? What is additional punishment? A country cannot afford to imprison that large a proportion of its population, and fines would exacerbate the resentment. I could see some form of community service in the form of war cleanup and having to physically, literally deal with the results of a genocide working to reset people’s perspective on it, but it’s not as though they’re not aware of what’s happening. I don’t know that simply being confronted with the viscerality of the genocide they knowingly support would do much, especially with such a high proportion of the population who do support it.
I’m not saying that the answer is to just give in to the demands of genocide supporters. I’m saying that it’s hard to imagine a workable solution and simply evicting and heavily taxing a whole bunch of people is going to lead to resentment.
I agree it is not simple in execution, but it is simple in the basis of it. Of course that requires external forces to enforce the law against anyone who chooses to fight it.
Ways to mitigate things could be a “Dezionification” process that teaches Israelis about their crimes. However you are right it will probably not go without using violence to enforce the law against Israeli criminals.
I’m sure the Israelis expelled from other countries where land was stolen from them will be pleased to hear this.
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So Palestinians must pay for the crimes of others?
I think that’s about the polar opposite of where we’re going with this.
Of course. People who had their land stolen from them should have it restituted to them no matter their ethnicity or citizenship.
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Unfortunately, the term “antisemitic” no longer has any kind of fixed meaning. I wish that weren’t true, and I think it’s a combination of forces that decided to misuse the word for several decades, that have now led to it being meaningless.
And you might be tempted to tell me what you think it means, and maybe I could agree with you, but when I turn on the TV tomorrow someone else will be using it in a totally different way that’s inconsistent. Actually I’m kidding. I don’t have a TV.
Words that people misuse are still meaningful when the reader and writer both understand the same meaning. I expect you understand OP perfectly well.
Words that people misuse for the sake of propaganda are intentionally misleading, regardless of how any in-group understands it.
Your use of the word “intentionally” is quite confusing to me. Intentionally misleading on whose part? The word’s part, or the in-group’s?
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Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years, backed by seemingly the majority of the political landscape and the population. Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
Israel is allowed to literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Palestine’s population has increased every single one of those 70+ years including the years after the October 7 attacks.
Actually, technically, officially
“Israel” (declared may 1948) existed before “Palestine” (declared 1988).
The Jews and the Arabs have both been there for millennia, and the land has been contested since the dawn of recorded history.
It was originally called Canaan in the late Bronze Age (1500 - 1200 BCE).
Then in the Iron Age it was called Judea.
Then the Romans conquered the land and called it Syria Palestina (the land of Syrian “Phillistines”, aka uncultured/uncivilized people.)
Later that evolved into Palestine, which wasn’t codified until 1988, 40 years after the formation of Israel.
Both peoples have been there for millennia, both peoples have been committing atrocities on one another, and both peoples have a legitimate claim to the land.
This isn’t a simple black and white issue with good guys and bad guys. Claiming Israel is the bad guys because they’re the current aggressors, is like walking in on a fight and accusing the one who’s currently winning of being the whole reason for the fight in the first place.
You have to know the whole story, unbiased, looking from both sides, to understand a current conflict.
These lands and these people’s need outside arbitration.
They’re incapable of coming to a peaceful solution on their own. They’re too proud and they both feel too entitled and righteous.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
It’s not fair.
If you study history, you will see not much about us is fair.
In recent times we have become abnormally civilized, but only just barely.
One of them is currently more monied and has more support from imperialist governments, but they’ve both done horrible things to one another and ended millions of eachothers lives over millennia.
Israel is trying to put an end to it forever in the most effective way they can think of.
Violence.
Are you not aware that Iran supports Hamas? Are you pretending October 7 didn’t happen?
I think you’re being very selective in your reading of history.
Iran is trying to put an end to Israel through violence and colonialism. They support violent oppressive factions throughout the middle east.
There have been land for peace deals negotiated in the past, there’s a willingness in Israel to make peace. But Iran gives support to violent factions like Hamas. Hamas has oppressively ruled over Gaza for over a decade and a half with the support of Iran.
Iran also supports the violent Houthi faction in Yemen which rules over a large part of that country (including the capital). The civil war there has been over 300,000 dead. They supported Assad’s regime a brutally oppressive faction that took a civil war with over half a million dead before he was ousted from power.
How many people need to die in this insane theocratic authoritarian regime’s goal to wipe Israel off the map before you’ll consider the possibility that they might be a problem?
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How many people need to die in this insane theocratic authoritarian regime’s goal to wipe Israel off the map before you’ll consider the possibility that they might be a problem?
The issue is that the genocide has been going on longer than Iran and Israel have been enemies. And even if it wasn’t older, Iran supporting shitty factions (which, funny enough, are also supported by Israel - Hamas being a Mossad catspaw from the start) does not justify Israeli genocide of Palestinians.
I’m aware of all of that.
The Arab-Israeli civil war of 1948 (Arabs call it the Nakba) actually started because of the first rejection by the Arabs of a peaceful two state partition.
In the Palestinian mind, right from the start of the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the British and the European Jews were seen as an invading force, and the formation of Israel was seen as the entrenchment of that invading force.
Prior to the Balfour Declaration and British backed migration of the European Jews, the Arabs outnumbered the Jews 10 to 1 in that region, and it was unofficially considered to be their lands. They saw the mass migration as an invasion and a threat to their sovereignty and culture, as peoples generally do.
Today only 44% of people living within the territory of Palestine are Arabs, and 52% are Jews.
Based on these numbers it would seem they were right to be afraid.
I think that pre-Israeli zionists literally used the slogan of “Arabs out!” might have contributed to early 20th century suspicions that zionism was a fundamentally invading and colonial ideology. But that’s just me.
You fucking sound like an Uyghur genocide apologist ghoul.
I’m definitely not. Israel isn’t sterilizing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians like we see happening to the Uyghurs.
And? What’s your point? Does that make killing of innocents in a stolen land justified? Are you brain damaged?
The point is that it isn’t a Holocaust and that such a lose use of the word is dangerous
Oh sorry, I forgot. Such serious terms can only be used when white people are in danger. Silly me.
Nobody takes you seriously when you max out on the hyperbole.
And now you’re just wildly accusing people of racism for pointing out facts. What is it you’re hoping to accomplish by this?
Interesting, what term would you use for what’s been happening in Palestine?
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And now you’re just wildly accusing people of racism for pointing out facts. What is it you’re hoping to accomplish by this?
Smokescreen for their support of genociding Israelis.
Israelis chanting death to entire ethnicities but nooooo we can’t say anything that might hurt their poor lil feelings. Bunch of bollocks. You lot are a bunch of clowns that are entirely too comfortable with the deaths of brown people.
“I just want to advocate for genocide! What’s the harm in that, other than some hurt feelings!?”
Okay, Zionist.
Hmm that’s a dumb reply. Please try better.
Man, you’re the one complaining that it’s not acceptable to advocate for genociding people of the wrong ethnicity because Israel did it first. Not really sure I’d trust the opinion of someone who wants to imitate Israel on what’s dumb or not.
Please show me where I have advocated for genocide of anyone or are you simply projecting here?
Also what do you mean with “the wrong ethnicity”?
I don’t want any innocent people to be harmed, no matter what religion or ethnicity. I do however think that the Palestinians at least deserve their land back that was stolen from them through relentless murder. Equally, hold those responsible accountable.
There are countless Jewish people around the world that are against the zionists murderous state of Israel. Are they also wrong?
He likes to equate decolonization to genocide, to him they are the same thing.
“Decolonization is when you ethnically cleanse civilians for being born the wrong ethnicity. It’s DEFINITELY different from genocide!”
Literal Nazi shit. If you were raised in Israel, you’d be an enthusiastic Zionist murdering Palestinians right now.
Decolonization is when you ethnically cleanse civilians for being born the wrong ethnicity. It’s DEFINITELY different from genocide!"
Lol, you are ridiculously hyperbolic and purposely conflating terms to the point where they don’t mean anything.
Once again you are ignoring the fact that Israel is the one who is dictating policy based on ethnicity. Meaning that it is they who makes it impossible to delineate the ethno from the state.
Would it be better if people just said Israeli nationals? Would it be ethnic cleansing if someone claimed Americans should be kicked out of tribal lands?
Literal Nazi shit. If you were raised in Israel, you’d be an enthusiastic Zionist murdering Palestinians right now.
Projecting much? You’re the one defending colonialism…
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Please show me where I have advocated for genocide of anyone or are you simply projecting here?
You’re complaining that I’m objecting to people who are advocating for literal genocide against Israel under the justification that advocating racist genocide is just ‘hurting Israeli feelings’ and thus harmless and should be asspatted instead. That’s literally your comment I responded to, genius.
There are countless Jewish people around the world that are against the zionists murderous state of Israel. Are they also wrong?
No. In the fucking title I even allude to a one-state solution, which would be to the horror of most fervent Israel supporters. Sorry that I think that genocide isn’t a Final Solution to the problem of Israel??
fuck zionists, but they aren’t evil because they are Jewish, they are evil because their are zionists.
that’s like saying fuck white people because there majority of Israelis are white.
and so many loud antizionist voices are Jewish.
if you conflate the two (what Israel wants) you just feed into the Israeli narrative that we all hate the jews and they can only be safe in apartheid genocidal Israel.
which is BS.
literally cause a holocaust on the Palestinian people for the last 70+ years
Either you don’t know what happened during the Holocaust, or you don’t know what happens to Palestinians. These are in not the same, very far from it.
This is Holocaust relativism, bordering on denial.
That said. Palestinians are oppressed and deserve better. Your antisemitic incitement does not help them.
Interesting, what term would you use to describe what has been happening in Palestine and specifically since the last 21 months?
specifically since the last 21 months
This war was triggered by a horrific and unprecedented attack on Israeli civilians on October 7th. A very destructive war in a dense urban setting against an extremely deeply entrenched fanatic enemy hiding among civilians.
There have also been war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity.
If you compare the physical destruction of buildings with the number of killed Palestinians, it becomes pretty obvious that killing the people is not a priority war goal.
There is pretty horrific rhetoric during war times, which has enabled war crimes.
Any other government would have surrendered long ago. Hamas refuses to do so, despite the immense military superiority of the IDF, regardless of the destruction and loss of life it costs.
Your nonsense reply tells me everything I need to know. Thanks for playing.
