I think this is the same shift for Republicans post-Obama. Every Republican started saying, “I’m an independent.” and the Tea Party started. Back then, Trump’s claim to fame was the birther movement, which eventually became MAGA & the presidential run.
Nowadays, I have very little respect or identification with Democrats. It feels like a failed party. I think they’ll either transform more left (see Bernie & AOC’s shifts & populism) or die out to something else. I like the Working Families Party because it focuses on the economic disparities rather than identity politics.
I’m glad we found more freedom for more people, but I think the Left has lost cohesion in doing so. We don’t need to all be the same, but the message used to be “Working class vs. Rich” and the Right manipulated that into its current populism. Now there’s the “Liberal Elites” that are out of touch, and recent events make it feel that way, not just propaganda any longer.
Nowadays, I have very little respect or identification with Democrats. It feels like a failed party
Yeah, but lots of us reached that point decades earlier…
08 Obama was the lone bright point going back forty years of the party.
Hell, at Carter’s time he faced a fractured party because he was moving to far right. So really it’s more like 50 years.
Dems have lost the plot for longer than most of us have been alive, and I’m all about reducing the strength of the party as an organization.
But we still need a DNC and state parties if only to facilitate primaries, that’s a very important function.
I’m just a bit worried about any potential schism among the Democrats because the electoral system in the US is still incredibly broken and will always gravitate towards a 2-party state.
To me, it seems easier for the Democrats to rebrand as more left-leaning than they currently are and try to remain a united front, rather than splinter into several competing parties.
If anything is to supplant the Democratic party, it would need to be one party supplanting the whole of the Democrats, or else Republicans will remain a plurality and retain control of the US government until the electoral process changes or their numbers diminish.
“Have you tried rebranding?”
Brilliant.
At this point the Democratic brand is so tarnished that it might be best to abandon it. More people now approve of Tesla than Democrats.
Republicans started their takeover by running a ton of local candidates. And in a lot of places having a D next to your name is an automatic defeat.
If republican voters agree with progressive goals - as many claim - then the best way to actually get things done is to run as a progressive independent in these local races.
Our two parties are engrained at this point, for better or worse, and will not change until we change our First Past the Post voting system. Everyone that’s disenfranchised with the Democratic party in this thread right now represents the owl voters in this video - watch it please, it’s very clear at explaining why what you are suggesting will absolutely NOT WORK and will allow the GOP to win in perpetuity.
I’ve seen that video. Everyone’s seen that video.
And if my only option is to keep voting for the party that has failed so completely a fascist is in office then we are well and truly fucked.
Well, if you truly understood that video, then you would know that by voting independent you’re fracturing the vote away from the one-of-two major parties, which means victory for the bad guys. It explains this.
Look, I 100% agree with you that what we have is absolute shit. You’re preaching to the choir. But the bad guys aren’t going to fracture their vote. They’re just not.
The system is the issue, and what we have to work with is by design. If you vote for anything but one of the two parties in power, you’re just giving the worst of the two the actual win.
The ONLY way to fix this is to fix the system. Period. End of discussion. That’s the cold hard truth.
Why do you think so many Russian trolls tried to push Bernie so hard back in 2016? Because they actually understand that video - you can’t do SHIT as an independent running in the system unless EVERYONE does it.
You’re incredibly passionate about our plight - so am I. Even if we don’t agree on everything, we’re in a small subset of people that are INVOLVED and INFORMED. The general populace is fairly dumb as shit. Their knowledge goes about an inch deep. Unless you can guarantee that EVERYONE is going to switch from Dem to independent, your suggestion is literally doomed to fail.
Nope, still disagree. Don’t have time or inclination to explain why, though.
Goodbye.
We really should be calling the “centrist” ones “Republicrats.”
Neoliberals are Fascist enablers.
Sanders and AOC can come.
Everyone is terrified of the word socialism, God damn
How would any other party get any time on a national platform to campaign, the way Democrats and Republicans do? I mean, we do have more than those two parties; but they’re never included in big debates or really given any attention at all. I’m surprised I don’t hear idiots saying shit like “Dude, I voted today and there was like 6 motherfuckers on the ballot instead of just two!”
It’s my understanding another party needs 5% of the vote in an election to get federal money and news coverage.
This may be our time.
He means in our local level. We can win state and local, also the fucking Congress as independent or different party. But only thing those parties do is run for president.
I’m with him. Time to build a new party and start taking over states. Of course that our last line. Best beat think only true choice we really have is to get out the guillotines. We won’t fix fascism and nazis without spilling blood.
Dude should be saying we need our own tea party movement where we take over the Democrat party. Not that we need to fracture ourselves even more.
That said, I think there is an argument for independent runs in purely local politics in areas that only have Republicans run for things and have a hatred for Democrats they can’t seem to move past.
Regardless. Bernie should know how our system works by now, he should know that fracturing has and will always be a stupid idea that only removes power from the leftists and progressives in the country and then gives it to the Republicans. Which then makes the Democrats move right because the progressives have left the building. This is just fucking stupid on a non local politics scale and Bernie should know better.
Maga had to do that to capture the rnc…
We just pried the DNC out of the hands of neoliberals…
Which is why mainstream media is suddenly ok with criticizing the DNC.
Dude should be saying we need our own tea party movement where we take over the Democrat party. Not that we need to fracture ourselves even more.
He already started it in 2016.
That said, I think there is an argument for independent runs in purely local politics in areas that only have Republicans run for things and have a hatred for Democrats they can’t seem to move past.
Yes. Or even run in the Republican primary (might be easier to get on the primary ballot than to get on the general election ballot).
Started a Tea Party like movement? Or started saying we need one? Because he did not start one at all. If he had we would have Democrat voters coming out in primaries more, and kicking out establishment Dems more if they don’t adhere to the parties core beliefs. He may have wanted to start one back then, but it was a false start because people lost a lot of steam when he wasn’t the candidate. Sure there were a lot of progressives elected in the next midterm, but that should have been a continuing trend, instead of something that plateaus. The Left has lost steam with their movement because they don’t keep their eye on the ball, we get distracted with infighting and splitting our votes with third parties instead of relentlessly pursuing our goal of remaking the party, something the Tea Party movement did extremely well at.
Dunno if running in the Republican primary would be worth anything because Republican primaries are very MAGA and if you aren’t that then you won’t get the nom at all.
Started a Tea Party like movement? Or started saying we need one? Because he did not start one at all.
The Republican Tea party movement started with Ron Paul running in the 2008 Republican primaries, and that having an impact on the kinds of Republicans who won the 2010 primaries and became part of the House flipping that year. Bernie started a progressive movement for the Democratic party by … running in the 2016 Democratic party. And that had an impact of more progressives running in the 2018 primaries (hello Squad) and helping flip the House that year.
If he had we would have Democrat voters coming out in primaries more, and kicking out establishment Dems more if they don’t adhere to the parties core beliefs. He may have wanted to start one back then, but it was a false start because people lost a lot of steam when he wasn’t the candidate. Sure there were a lot of progressives elected in the next midterm, but that should have been a continuing trend, instead of something that plateaus.
Well maybe progressive voters should have kept at it, then. It’s a long road to change an organization that big. I would actually put the moment as being in the 2020 primaries when a bunch of the moderates dropped out to coalesce for Biden before super Tuesday when it looked like FPTP was helping Bernie. But that just again speaks to the fact that not enough progressives were coming out to vote.
The Left has lost steam with their movement because they don’t keep their eye on the ball, we get distracted with infighting and splitting our votes with third parties instead of relentlessly pursuing our goal of remaking the party, something the Tea Party movement did extremely well at.
Ok we’re on the same page mostly. The Tea Parties continued momentum was, in no insignificant part, thanks to the billionaire Koch brothers co-opting it by funding a bazillion primary challenges to win over state legislatures towards their goal of calling a Constitutional Convention to rewrite it in their anarcho-capitalist ideals. They weren’t quite as interested in the US Congress or the presidency.
So, I still maintain that Bernie already started the movement in much the same way that Ron Paul started theirs. Just by running in the primary and inspiring both voters and candidates to go out to the primaries.
Dunno if running in the Republican primary would be worth anything because Republican primaries are very MAGA and if you aren’t that then you won’t get the nom at all.
Sometimes just getting a platform to speak your ideas is enough to get things going. Progressive ballot measures did well in 2024. Conservative voters can change their minds when confronted with first hand experience. Bernie convinced a Fox News studio audience to like Medicare for all. And even losing the primary after that, the exposure could very well help you get the signatures to appear on the general ballot as an independent.
Okay I see what you’re saying now. Yeah I think we are on the same page. It’s really all about persistence and progressives voting consistently. I was thinking more about how the movement he started didn’t continue on its pace, not necessarily that nothing he did mattered.
I also think the 2020 primaries is complicated in just that the moderates that dropped out weren’t polling super well anyway so them dropping out didn’t give Biden as much of a boost as much as just him being Biden. That said, Bernie should have been the candidate but not enough people voted for him in the primary to get that to happen. He also still faced the “He’s not a democrat” accusation which was a problem for him in both primaries he ran in. Again, if more progressives had come out to vote for Bernie, he would have won.
It’s all about voting in the primaries.
also think the 2020 primaries is complicated in just that the moderates that dropped out weren’t polling super well anyway so them dropping out didn’t give Biden as much of a boost as much as just him being Biden.
It’s an interesting event to think about. Because if it did solidify numbers that weren’t they with all the candidates still in, then that means a ranked choice system still should have put Biden as the winner. And if it didn’t really provide Biden extra numbers he needed to win, then it was coordinated messaging against the rising movement, and it worked but also turned away voters they needed to hold onto in the long run.
I mean the thing that signaled Biden had any chance in 2020 was him winning South Carolina pretty big and that showed the establishment moderates that there was someone to back who could win against Bernie. Since Bernie had a plurality not a majority it was a tough race to win outright. Super Tuesday solidified his lead but then Covid happened less than 2 weeks later and made it so Bernie couldn’t have made up for his losses on Super Tuesday. Basically guaranteeing that Biden would win. The people that dropped out before ST were Buttigieg, Klobochar, and O’Rourke had kinda already crashed and burned. But Pete was the more left leaning out of those people so even with him dropping out it would make sense for much of those voters to go to Bernie. So realistically a Bidens bump started with South Carolina and the moderates then realized he was their only chance. Again, Bernie could have, and likely would have over come this without COVID. But he didn’t. If voters in South Carolina had picked Bernie Biden wouldn’t have gotten any bump and Bernie would have continued his way to a plurality of votes. Biden also eventually got a majority of voters to his side while Bernie has never had a majority of voters. Mind you, neither did Obama. But Obama was…Obama. Being a young charasmatic person who can inspire in your speeches helps a whole lot.
Bernie was doing well but couldn’t overcome that Biden was viewed as a strong candidate by moderates overall, that covid happened, and also that he just wasn’t a Democrat. People had the same thought process for Bloomberg because he was a Republican. They wanted a democrat at the head.
This is also why it will be easier for someone who has always been a Democrat to win the presidential primary as a progressive. Bernie also has the trouble with being a guy with great ideas but still being an old dude and going on tangents that aren’t necessary to make his point. He is also not the best at inspiring in his speeches, not that they can’t be inspiring. Just that he’s not as Charismatic as Obama was. Someone like AOC though has the charisma down, has the ideas down, has the ability to talk like a normal person down, is young, and is able to use things like social media and be just as normal as anyone else.
I think most state parties are ok, and the DNC just got it’s furtherest left chair in 30 years…
But the idea behind this, that politicians are loyal to voters over party is a lot better than where party comes first. Because helping voters is hard, and if it’s not the priority it doesn’t get done.
When we help voters when able, we have the numbers for majorities.
The independent party is back!
I get what he’s saying, but the history of third parties in the US says this is futile. Then again, the last thing the Democrats need right now is extensive party in-fighting when they should be united.
Most people united after Hilary was made the candidate; and they lost. People united after Harris was the candidate; they still lost.
Best thing to do is start from scratch, away from this bullshit democratic party. As it stands, they will never agree to what the people want. Free healthcare is one example.
Starting from scratch won’t work until we fix our First Past the Post voting system. See this video for a crystal clear explanation -https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
Watch the video! It’s why what Bernie (who I absolutely love as a senator) said won’t work.
We can’t do SHIT until we fix our voting system.
Well, then we’re not doing shit. That’s not going to happen at this point unless the system collapses completely, which you really don’t want to happen.
We’re not going to fix it by voting third party, period.
The only way it can be fixed is to do it through changes led by our elected officials. So we need to advocate for and support people that can make it happen. We need to protest for it, push for it, put people in power that support it.
If someone doesn’t support it, we need to exercise our votes together and get someone in there that’s more progressive and will fight to make changes, not preserve the status quo.
But we can’t lose sight of the drawbacks of our voting system while we work to see those changes implemented.
We can’t get there by fracturing our vote into two less powerful groups/parties. They will win every time, because they’re united.
We have to get people ready to exercise their vote for a united cause/person.
People like the person in this thread that folded like a napkin when starting to have a tough conversation are part of the problem - either we fix it together or we lose. If we just bitch about our problem and don’t act, we lose.
Put your energy in getting the right person in power to support, and help them! That’s the only way we’re truthfully going to fix this.
It’s worked out so well for them so far. The left organizing themselves into anything useful and productive, historically can be compared to cats herding cats.
Do me a favor and search, “FDR New Deal.”
