Archive article: https://archive.ph/LJPiZ
A new survey showing that 82 percent of Jewish Israelis support the expulsion of Gazans was met with disbelief among those who stubbornly believe that the extremists are outliers. But these trends are as consistent as they are shocking
It’s an oversimplification, but it’s like an older brother and a younger brother sharing a room. They hate each other. They’re always messing with each other’s stuff. The older brother knows better, but he’s angry and tends to be abusive. The younger brother knows he shouldn’t pick a fight, but can’t help himself. They’ve both been fighting so long that each feels justified in hurting the other.
Who’s at fault is the wrong question. Is it the 7 year old? He’s 7. Is it the 12 year old? He’s a kid too, just bigger and stronger. Both lack the maturity and empathy to be in charge and have the run of things. They’ve both proven they’re entirely incapable of being fair or kind to each other.
It’s the parents’ fault for letting it happen. Or in this case, enabling both kids and giving them tips and tricks for how to fight better.
We can’t expects Israel or Palestine to be the adults in the room. They aren’t. They can’t. We can’t expect ourselves to be the adults in the room. We’re watching these kids beat themselves bloody for our amusement.
Until someone puts their foot down and says enough is enough, nothing will change, but the person who says that and lays down their weapons probably gets killed. So this won’t end until one side exterminates the other.
more like a homeless guy coming into a child a house, kicking the family into the basement, feeding them scraps, and when he wants to make a game room in the basement coming down to torture/kill them all.
sometimes the starving family downstairs complain, and in response, he just kills a random family member, you know, seems fair.
and all the neighbours side when the psycho invader, and blame the family for complaining and not thinking about the poor guy who regularly tortures them. because he’s a human too.
This is the bit that I’ve had a hard time with. And, to put it in less snide allegorical terms: Israel is in many ways the “invader”. They took land, took homes, that weren’t theirs. That invasion has been justified through massive harm to their people, and the need for a “safe space” they can call their own. But while that’s the in-person justification by individuals, the backroom justification used to ship the weapons is achieving a “Western presence” in the middle east.
Something the Jewish community might not get is: They’re not the only group that’s been targeted for hate throughout history. The holocaust didn’t even specifically target jews. We don’t get to make a “Transgender state”, or a “Black American state”, and especially not displace others for that. In some ways the world needs to accept that, whether by 10 miles or 100, we’ll still be neighbors on this planet and not totally unreachable. Set that distance, and it means you only get boiling points like 9/11 rather than shots fired in a neighborhood.
a trans state would be dope.
but make sure to differentiate the Jewish community and the zionists/Israel community.
although a lot of Jews support Israel. lots are speaking against it, some of the loudest anti zionists Voices are Jewish, from Chomsky, Finkelstein, JVP, btselem…
no one has the right to an ethnostate
the sad reality is that lots of refugees fleed to Palestine, but instead of being refugees, they wanted to be colonizers.
Can we just kick everyone out of Wyoming and make Wyoming the trans state?
not sure why Wyoming, but go ahead
Because Wyoming not?
🤨🤔
Split semantics on exact wording if you’d like. A better word might be “solely”. The Nazi party collected anyone of a variety of demographics they didn’t like, including foreigners, LGBT, physically/mentally disabled, scholars, etc.
It’s spooky how accurate this analogy is
It’s not accurate in the slightest.
It’s a genuinely disgusting mischaracterization of violent dispossession and genocide as some kind of sibling rivalry.
This is not an argument between family! Palestinian people are being maimed, tortured, starved, and killed! They have been subjected to relentless oppression, occupation, and brutality under an internationally recognized system of apartheid for decades. The perpetrators of these heinous crimes do not need a stern talking to from a parent, they need to be brought to justice.
What is happening now is the culmination of years of this sort of dismissive patronizing bullshit framing of some of the most despicable things humans can do to others. The genocidal intent motivating these acts is spoken openly and plainly by zionist officials and media, and all foreign backers have made it abundantly clear that they will do their part to try to sanitize and legitimize these horrific crimes.
A reckoning will come, and absolutely no one who sided with israel, in virtually any capacity, will be able to claim ignorance nor innocence. Every one will be remembered for their role in supporting these sadistic genocidal child murderers.
I mean if your only source of information on this conflict Al Jazeera then maybe, but if you actually look through the history of this region you would quickly understand that this is a gross oversimplification that ignores a lot of context.
It ignores all the previous wars, all the tensions during the British mandate, the tensions during the Ottoman Empire, how the modern states came to be, how they developed their identities, the involvement of other countries in the region, the involvement of distant foreign powers, the insane amount of ethnic cleansing carried out not just in both of these states but also in the wider region as a consequence of that events that took place in this region.
The point is that there is a lot that led us to this point, and it’s neither accurate or helpful to boil to replace history with a narrative. We can have an honest discussion about the current situation where we can agree to condemn the atrocities taking place right now, agree that the people responsible should be brought to justice, while also acknowledging the historical reality. From that point of view, I see this analogy as oversimplified, but still accurate tug of war between the two where neither wants to let go of the rope until the other completely loses.
You don’t need Aljazeera to know the truth, just read what Zionist wrote and said themselves. The following is a quote by Jabotinsky:
“[It is the] iron law of every colonizing movement, a law which knows of no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else – or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not “difficult”, not “dangerous” but IMPOSSIBLE! … Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonialization.”
As quoted by Lenni Brenner, in The Iron Wall: Zionist Revisionism from Jabotinsky to Shamir (1984), where the quotation is cited as being from “The Iron Law”
There’s more quotes by other Zionists that make no doubt that Israelis are the aggressors and Palestinians are the victims. There’s no two sides to colonialism and ethnic cleansing.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenni_Brenner
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky#Early_life
Yeah, I don’t care what some activist who has clear biases wrote about some other activist who also has clear biases but in the other direction . We’re talking about isn’t about ideology, but how the actual history unfolded, what events ended up taking place, and how those events lead us to today. My point is that the actual history that took place is beyond of the scope of ideological framing. The reality is more complex then you give it credit.
The ridiculous thing is that by acknowledging you have no idea how foundational Jabotinsky was to the genesis of the state of israel, you’ve revealed how little of the history you actually know and understand.
There is a direct line from Jabotinsky and Irgun to Menachem Begin, a former prime minister who was a member of Irgun and who later founded Herut, which eventually transformed into Likud, which is literally the current ruling party of the state with Netanyahu at its helm.
These are not fringe figures, revisionist zionism has been the dominant tendency for decades by this point, though it has intensified and become even more vicious and genocidal as the war on terror gave them ample cover and support for their brutality.
You insist it is complicated but clearly have no idea how uncomplicated it really is. The first zionist congress was in 1897, and the zionist occupation of Palestine began shortly after. Colonization started at a trickle but ramped up during the british mandate period. By the time israel declared independence, it had already been engaging in ethnic cleansing campaigns and massacres for years.
Do you not understand that israelis today very literally live in stolen homes, and are in the process of actively stealing and demolishing homes throughout the entire region? Every week more people have their homes and crops taken or destroyed by settlers, settlers who poison their livestock and take chainsaws to olive groves that have existed for centuries. Settlers who routinely attack and terrorize Palestinians under the watchful eyes of the occupation forces, who will step in to detain or murder Palestinians that resist in any capacity. Settler who have planted millions of european trees over the ruins of Palestinian villages to try to cover their crimes.
It has never not been a settler colonial project in service of creating an ethnostate. It has never not been rooted in violent dispossession and ethnic cleansing. There have been figures and groups that sought to soften the brutality, some early on that even had more of a vision of peaceful coexistance with the indigenous population, but that has never been a real manifestation of the zionist project.
While all history has complexity and nuance, it is not so complicated that we can’t see a very clear and consistent aggressor and occupier, alongside resistance to it which has been routinely portrayed as somehow unjustified. If you really think it’s complicated, I’d wager you’ve literally never even attempted to understand the history from the perspective of Palestinians. If you had, you wouldn’t be saying any of this shit. Do yourself a favor and learn so you stop being a part of the problem.
Would you rather read it from a Zionist? How do you feel about the first Israeli prime minister?
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
One more by the same person:
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
And yet, for all your snowjob bullshit, there is one people in chains and another people putting them in chains. I don’t give a shit what the history is. No one has the right to do that to someone else. The Nazis had a long list of historical grievances against their Jewish population. You would have been right there on the side of the Nazis, saying that while you don’t support them necessarily, you fully understand what Hitler is trying to accomplish.
This is gross. Israel invaded and occupied Palestine. The people of Gaza were driven there by ethnic cleansing, a wall was built around them, and they have been starved of food, water, and medicine for years before fighting back.
Israel wants to finish cleansing the land of Palestinians. Palestinians want to end the state of Israel and return to their homes. Only one of these requires exterminating the other side.
Your comment tldr: “You guys don’t get it; they’re both bad”
and then everyone clapped for you. /s
Palestinians and Israelis aren’t brothers though. One is indigenous fighting for his land and the other is a settler on an apocalyptic colonizing mission because he claims God gave it to him 2500 years ago.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938
Nah this is like if you are the parent of an adult child. They have a rough time. They get burned by a series of landlords who screw them over, take advantage of them, and seriously harm their well being. For whatever reason, they decide that instead of renting, their best option is to go squat in their childhood home. It was sold years ago and currently occupied, but they decided they’re just going to force their way in at gunpoint, take over part of the house, and slowly take over more and more of it. You think this is a great idea, and you gladly provide them with weapons and ammo so they can occupy their childhood home.
100%
except there’s a bit of tragedy
Palestinians are in large part the Jews who stayed there and later converted.
so it’s more like your childhood home is housing your brother and his family. you take over it at gunpoint and act like they never existed
This an incredibly fucking stupid post. You’re so off base it would be funny if there wasn’t an ongoing genocide happening while you’re here brushing off Isreals warcrimes with a moronic analogy.
Eat shit.