Archive article: https://archive.ph/LJPiZ
A new survey showing that 82 percent of Jewish Israelis support the expulsion of Gazans was met with disbelief among those who stubbornly believe that the extremists are outliers. But these trends are as consistent as they are shocking
It’d be more surprising if the ingroup of an established ethnostate weren’t hitlerites.
Lebensraum
I noticed on LinkedIn that a ton of my former colleagues from Israel are now in the US. I think shifting demographics as progressives leave are a bigger part of the story than the shifting opinions these stories have been about.
The wider truth is that anyone who’s remotely sane or empathetic is driven out of the zio regime. I have a friend who grew up under the regime and resisted the mandatory terrorism. He was put in prison, then he was harassed and threatened with death until he fled to USA. This dude is an exceptionally great person and for that reason he was violently forced out.
So whom does that leave over there? Only the most genocidal wackos. Thus, this completely unsurprising poll.
Also work the other way around, Jewish people from around the world that don’t accept the genocide being committed on their name are not going to move to Israel, while tha ones that are OK and support it are more likely to move in and participate directly.
My understanding is that Israeli TV is hugely responsible for making this mainstream. Just like in Rwanda where radio played a huge role in the genocide.
It’s almost as if genocide scholars have been warning about a series of patterns over the last couple of years…
The genocidal ideology of zionism is their hegemonic narrative. It’s much bigger than just TV. It’s also the schools, politicians, cops/prisons, compulsory terrorism, etc. Genocide is the basis of their entire “society”.
I don’t think that’s fair, they do absolutely teach Zionism from a young age, but it’s not specifically genocide. Watched an interesting documentary recently about Jews in America and how they’re raised, it’s basically once you get pushed into the IDF THEN the genocide love starts being actively spread.
they do absolutely teach Zionism from a young age,
once you get pushed into the IDF THEN the genocide love starts being actively spread.
So they learn to hate from a young age, reinforced by mandatory military service (for both genders, they’re very egalitarian)… and then they grow up to accept genocide… but they’re not taught to be genocidal in school so it’s ok… got it.
Serious question, how much of this has to do with hamas not releasing the hostages. I would imagine they’d be hearing and talking bout getting their people back constantly.
Considering they’re carpet-bombing the place it’ll be interesting to know if there any hostages left… of course they’ll blame hamas.
Since the steps for Palestinian genocide started before Oct 7, and the IDF has been okay with killing their own hostages in high-yield strikes, not likely.
It’s hard to say. With or without hostages, October 7 was extremely traumatic; and came in the context of a population already primed to be suspicious of Palestinians. In particular, the West Bank ethnic cleansing was already well underway with the tacit support of the general population; as although for most people that support was more about apathy than proactive support. Looking at how the US lost its shit for decades after 9/11, it is clear that hostages are not necessary for that to happen. Israel has also to deal with follow up attacks, which has a way of keeping trauma fresh.
Regarding the role of the hostages in this case, the first thing to acknowledge is that the actual response by Israel has not prioritized the hostages. Critical members of Israel’s current governing coalition have threatened to leave over prior attempts at a hostage deal. This has lead a serious rift developing between the current government and many of the hostage families.
However, from a propaganda side, the hostages have been a major assesset to the current government (both internationally and domestically). Most people are simply not that engaged in politics. We have heard repeatedly from Israeli military leadership that there are no achievat military goals left in Gaza. However, it is hard for that message to break through when the other side can point to the hostages and say “freeing those people is our goal”. Nevermind the fact that everyone paying attention knows that military action is not an effective tool of hostage release [0] and almost all of the freed hostages have been freed as a result of diplomacy.
[0] It can be useful for leverage in negotiations; but Israel is well past the point needed for that.
Hamas should free the hostages. Frankly, they should have never taken non-combatant hostages in the first place. That was absolutely a crime.
Netanyahu want to continue the genocide even after hostages are released . Don’t tell the oppressed what to do when the west been ignoring 57 years of occupation and dozens of atrocities like 7 of October through history .
You should ask for Israel to end occupation, allow a one or two state solution then bring people responsible of atrocities on both side
Go through my comment history buddy, you’re preaching to the choir. The fact that the Israeli apartheid regime is committing genocide is one thing. The fact that Hamas should not have taken non-combatant hostages is another. And sorry but no, I refuse to identify Hamas with “the oppressed”. They are fanatics propped up by slave-owners in the Gulf and politically useful idiots of the Israeili apartheid regime.
You are an idealist ignoring history and human psychology .It would be cool if there was a resistance group that do not target any civilians and do not get money from shady group. This was never the case. I can got in history and see ton of massacre commited by the oppressed due to oppresion. Like nana sahib in india promising safety to a bunch of british civilians amd soldier and ending up massacring them.
Palestinians won’t stay silence and keep hearing the useless both commited attrocities bs , waiting arabs and west countries to help which they will never do.
I don’t support hamas, i support their actions against the idf terrorists only
Talking about a useful idiot, that’s the palestinian autority collaborating with israel while israel arm and protect violent terrorists settlers and expanding settlements
You are so hardcore and knowledgeable of human history and psychology. So hardcore. Yea.
Look buddy. The world fucking sucks, right? People do horrible things. People are locked into doing horrible things. People are desperate, and brutalized and traumatized and beaten down. You can look at that and say, yea that’s how it is.
Or you can look at it and say We Should Do Better. You call that idealism? Good. In a world where reality is becoming more brutal by the hour, maybe a little idealism is what exactly we need.
Most of October 7 was a crime, even without the hostages. Taking the hostages was itself a crime, and continuing to hold them continues to be a crime.
The question of what Hamas “should” do is more complicated. Clearly following international law is not a priority for them, so that justification goes out the window.
In terms of actually advancing their interests, I don’t see much benefit to them. Their biggest asset in Israeli domestic politics are the hostages. The political pressure in Israel to free them is real, and the decision makers all know that a deal is the only way to meet that. Further, a not insignificant portion of the population oppose the war in it’s current form specifically because of the hostages. The only wins Hamas has gotten has been through hostage negotiations.
In exchange for giving all of that up, Hamas gets a slight benefit in the PR war. It is a very hard sell to say that is a good trade.
If you want Hamas to free the hostages, you need to get to a point where “Hamas should free the hostages” is true from the perspective of Hamas. Then, you can work on convincing them it is true. The good news is that Hamas is very amenable to the idea that releasing hostages is in their interest. That is the entire reason you take hostages: to get some benefit by releasing them.
I am using “should” in a moral sense, according to my own moral compass. I mean that according to my own morality they “should do the right thing”. Nothing beyond that.
That said, I agree with your analysis entirely.
Given the thousands of Palestinians taken hostage by Israel both before and after Oct 7, the vast majority of which are non-combatants and are held in nightmarish conditions. How else would Hamas negotiate for their release except via a hostage exchange? Are they supposed to just give up the only bargaining chip they have?
I don’t appreciate these “what else should they do” questions. I’ve been debating pro-zionist trolls for two years now and I no longer accept even their premise. I’m not going to turn around and apply it to Hamas.
I think holding hostages for the sake of getting your own people back from a genocidal ethnostate is maybe a little more justifiable then Zionist apologia for genocide. But maybe that’s just me.
If we are talking about combatants, sure. I would not flinch a moment. But civilians? Kids? Nah bro, don’t go there.
For years Israel has been running around the world, waving their foes statements about “pushing Israel into the sea” as a call to arms against atrocity.
And now here they are, committing that very atrocity. But genocide seems inevitable when your stated goal is to be an ethnostate.
Wow, highlighting the fact they’re a genocidal theocratic ethnostate without highlighting the good things.
Like how they invented tomatoes hummus and fizzy water, or how good they are at exterminating the brutes!
Clearly just an antisemite. There’s no behavior the jewish people could do that would be good enough for you, short of completely stopping the genocide¹, and abandoning their entire 5000 year old culture, which is suspiciously close to lemkin’s original definition of genocide. Stopping the genocide is genocide. You people just cant stop wanting to genocide jews, can you? Antisemites make me sick.
¹which the hamas people are doing to themselves actually. Tge idf has never been outside the city of jerusalem, and actually mostly just makes music videos, check them out on social media!
It’s an oversimplification, but it’s like an older brother and a younger brother sharing a room. They hate each other. They’re always messing with each other’s stuff. The older brother knows better, but he’s angry and tends to be abusive. The younger brother knows he shouldn’t pick a fight, but can’t help himself. They’ve both been fighting so long that each feels justified in hurting the other.
Who’s at fault is the wrong question. Is it the 7 year old? He’s 7. Is it the 12 year old? He’s a kid too, just bigger and stronger. Both lack the maturity and empathy to be in charge and have the run of things. They’ve both proven they’re entirely incapable of being fair or kind to each other.
It’s the parents’ fault for letting it happen. Or in this case, enabling both kids and giving them tips and tricks for how to fight better.
We can’t expects Israel or Palestine to be the adults in the room. They aren’t. They can’t. We can’t expect ourselves to be the adults in the room. We’re watching these kids beat themselves bloody for our amusement.
Until someone puts their foot down and says enough is enough, nothing will change, but the person who says that and lays down their weapons probably gets killed. So this won’t end until one side exterminates the other.
Nah this is like if you are the parent of an adult child. They have a rough time. They get burned by a series of landlords who screw them over, take advantage of them, and seriously harm their well being. For whatever reason, they decide that instead of renting, their best option is to go squat in their childhood home. It was sold years ago and currently occupied, but they decided they’re just going to force their way in at gunpoint, take over part of the house, and slowly take over more and more of it. You think this is a great idea, and you gladly provide them with weapons and ammo so they can occupy their childhood home.
100%
except there’s a bit of tragedy
Palestinians are in large part the Jews who stayed there and later converted.
so it’s more like your childhood home is housing your brother and his family. you take over it at gunpoint and act like they never existed
This an incredibly fucking stupid post. You’re so off base it would be funny if there wasn’t an ongoing genocide happening while you’re here brushing off Isreals warcrimes with a moronic analogy.
more like a homeless guy coming into a child a house, kicking the family into the basement, feeding them scraps, and when he wants to make a game room in the basement coming down to torture/kill them all.
sometimes the starving family downstairs complain, and in response, he just kills a random family member, you know, seems fair.
and all the neighbours side when the psycho invader, and blame the family for complaining and not thinking about the poor guy who regularly tortures them. because he’s a human too.
This is the bit that I’ve had a hard time with. And, to put it in less snide allegorical terms: Israel is in many ways the “invader”. They took land, took homes, that weren’t theirs. That invasion has been justified through massive harm to their people, and the need for a “safe space” they can call their own. But while that’s the in-person justification by individuals, the backroom justification used to ship the weapons is achieving a “Western presence” in the middle east.
Something the Jewish community might not get is: They’re not the only group that’s been targeted for hate throughout history. The holocaust didn’t even specifically target jews. We don’t get to make a “Transgender state”, or a “Black American state”, and especially not displace others for that. In some ways the world needs to accept that, whether by 10 miles or 100, we’ll still be neighbors on this planet and not totally unreachable. Set that distance, and it means you only get boiling points like 9/11 rather than shots fired in a neighborhood.
a trans state would be dope.
but make sure to differentiate the Jewish community and the zionists/Israel community.
although a lot of Jews support Israel. lots are speaking against it, some of the loudest anti zionists Voices are Jewish, from Chomsky, Finkelstein, JVP, btselem…
no one has the right to an ethnostate
the sad reality is that lots of refugees fleed to Palestine, but instead of being refugees, they wanted to be colonizers.
a trans state would be dope.
Can we just kick everyone out of Wyoming and make Wyoming the trans state?
not sure why Wyoming, but go ahead
Because Wyoming not?
The holocaust didn’t even specifically target jews
🤨🤔
Split semantics on exact wording if you’d like. A better word might be “solely”. The Nazi party collected anyone of a variety of demographics they didn’t like, including foreigners, LGBT, physically/mentally disabled, scholars, etc.
Palestinians and Israelis aren’t brothers though. One is indigenous fighting for his land and the other is a settler on an apocalyptic colonizing mission because he claims God gave it to him 2500 years ago.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938
Your comment tldr: “You guys don’t get it; they’re both bad”
and then everyone clapped for you. /s
Eat shit.
This is gross. Israel invaded and occupied Palestine. The people of Gaza were driven there by ethnic cleansing, a wall was built around them, and they have been starved of food, water, and medicine for years before fighting back.
Israel wants to finish cleansing the land of Palestinians. Palestinians want to end the state of Israel and return to their homes. Only one of these requires exterminating the other side.
It’s spooky how accurate this analogy is
It’s not accurate in the slightest.
It’s a genuinely disgusting mischaracterization of violent dispossession and genocide as some kind of sibling rivalry.
This is not an argument between family! Palestinian people are being maimed, tortured, starved, and killed! They have been subjected to relentless oppression, occupation, and brutality under an internationally recognized system of apartheid for decades. The perpetrators of these heinous crimes do not need a stern talking to from a parent, they need to be brought to justice.
What is happening now is the culmination of years of this sort of dismissive patronizing bullshit framing of some of the most despicable things humans can do to others. The genocidal intent motivating these acts is spoken openly and plainly by zionist officials and media, and all foreign backers have made it abundantly clear that they will do their part to try to sanitize and legitimize these horrific crimes.
A reckoning will come, and absolutely no one who sided with israel, in virtually any capacity, will be able to claim ignorance nor innocence. Every one will be remembered for their role in supporting these sadistic genocidal child murderers.
I mean if your only source of information on this conflict Al Jazeera then maybe, but if you actually look through the history of this region you would quickly understand that this is a gross oversimplification that ignores a lot of context.
It ignores all the previous wars, all the tensions during the British mandate, the tensions during the Ottoman Empire, how the modern states came to be, how they developed their identities, the involvement of other countries in the region, the involvement of distant foreign powers, the insane amount of ethnic cleansing carried out not just in both of these states but also in the wider region as a consequence of that events that took place in this region.
The point is that there is a lot that led us to this point, and it’s neither accurate or helpful to boil to replace history with a narrative. We can have an honest discussion about the current situation where we can agree to condemn the atrocities taking place right now, agree that the people responsible should be brought to justice, while also acknowledging the historical reality. From that point of view, I see this analogy as oversimplified, but still accurate tug of war between the two where neither wants to let go of the rope until the other completely loses.
You don’t need Aljazeera to know the truth, just read what Zionist wrote and said themselves. The following is a quote by Jabotinsky:
“[It is the] iron law of every colonizing movement, a law which knows of no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else – or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not “difficult”, not “dangerous” but IMPOSSIBLE! … Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonialization.”
As quoted by Lenni Brenner, in The Iron Wall: Zionist Revisionism from Jabotinsky to Shamir (1984), where the quotation is cited as being from “The Iron Law”
There’s more quotes by other Zionists that make no doubt that Israelis are the aggressors and Palestinians are the victims. There’s no two sides to colonialism and ethnic cleansing.
Lenni Brenner (born 1937), formerly known as Leonard Glaser or Lenny Glaser,[a] is an American Trotskyist writer. In the 1960s, Brenner was a prominent civil rights movement activist and vocal opponent of the Vietnam War. Since the 1980s, his activism has focused on anti-Zionism. He has published widely on the history of Zionism, in particular asserting that the movement collaborated with the Nazis.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenni_Brenner
Ze’ev Jabotinsky[a][b] MBE (born Vladimir Yevgenyevich Zhabotinsky;[c] 17 October 1880[1] – 3 August 1940)[4] was a Russian-born[d] author, poet, orator, soldier, and founder of the Revisionist Zionist movement and the Jewish Self-Defense Organization in Odessa.
With Joseph Trumpeldor, he co-founded the Jewish Legion of the British Army in World War I.[10] Later he established several Jewish organizations, including the paramilitary group Betar in Latvia, the youth movement Hatzohar and the militant organization Irgun in Mandatory Palestine.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky#Early_life
Yeah, I don’t care what some activist who has clear biases wrote about some other activist who also has clear biases but in the other direction . We’re talking about isn’t about ideology, but how the actual history unfolded, what events ended up taking place, and how those events lead us to today. My point is that the actual history that took place is beyond of the scope of ideological framing. The reality is more complex then you give it credit.
The ridiculous thing is that by acknowledging you have no idea how foundational Jabotinsky was to the genesis of the state of israel, you’ve revealed how little of the history you actually know and understand.
There is a direct line from Jabotinsky and Irgun to Menachem Begin, a former prime minister who was a member of Irgun and who later founded Herut, which eventually transformed into Likud, which is literally the current ruling party of the state with Netanyahu at its helm.
These are not fringe figures, revisionist zionism has been the dominant tendency for decades by this point, though it has intensified and become even more vicious and genocidal as the war on terror gave them ample cover and support for their brutality.
You insist it is complicated but clearly have no idea how uncomplicated it really is. The first zionist congress was in 1897, and the zionist occupation of Palestine began shortly after. Colonization started at a trickle but ramped up during the british mandate period. By the time israel declared independence, it had already been engaging in ethnic cleansing campaigns and massacres for years.
Do you not understand that israelis today very literally live in stolen homes, and are in the process of actively stealing and demolishing homes throughout the entire region? Every week more people have their homes and crops taken or destroyed by settlers, settlers who poison their livestock and take chainsaws to olive groves that have existed for centuries. Settlers who routinely attack and terrorize Palestinians under the watchful eyes of the occupation forces, who will step in to detain or murder Palestinians that resist in any capacity. Settler who have planted millions of european trees over the ruins of Palestinian villages to try to cover their crimes.
It has never not been a settler colonial project in service of creating an ethnostate. It has never not been rooted in violent dispossession and ethnic cleansing. There have been figures and groups that sought to soften the brutality, some early on that even had more of a vision of peaceful coexistance with the indigenous population, but that has never been a real manifestation of the zionist project.
While all history has complexity and nuance, it is not so complicated that we can’t see a very clear and consistent aggressor and occupier, alongside resistance to it which has been routinely portrayed as somehow unjustified. If you really think it’s complicated, I’d wager you’ve literally never even attempted to understand the history from the perspective of Palestinians. If you had, you wouldn’t be saying any of this shit. Do yourself a favor and learn so you stop being a part of the problem.
Would you rather read it from a Zionist? How do you feel about the first Israeli prime minister?
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
One more by the same person:
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
It ignores all the previous wars, all the tensions during the British mandate, the tensions during the Ottoman Empire, how the modern states came to be, how they developed their identities, the involvement of other countries in the region, the involvement of distant foreign powers, the insane amount of ethnic cleansing carried out not just in both of these states but also in the wider region as a consequence of that events that took place in this region.
And yet, for all your snowjob bullshit, there is one people in chains and another people putting them in chains. I don’t give a shit what the history is. No one has the right to do that to someone else. The Nazis had a long list of historical grievances against their Jewish population. You would have been right there on the side of the Nazis, saying that while you don’t support them necessarily, you fully understand what Hitler is trying to accomplish.
There is no both siding this, the Zionists are genocidal and there are no good zionists. This should be shocking to nobody. Im Jewish and ill say this as many times as I need to
ANTIZIONISM IS NOT ANTISEMITISM
When this voluntary migration plan succeeds and the world becomes a beautiful terrorism free utopia, you antizionists are going to look pretty stupid.
Edit: Wait!!! Are you about to downvote me because you’re a zionist, an antizionist who doesn’t understand irony, or something else? I can’t not know!
This poll is disgusting
Why do you inquiry people based on their religion, and not their social class or nationality ? Or their implication in the settlements ? They may have interesting numbers their, but this poll decided to racialize the conflict.
Why shall we trust a poll in fascist state at war, that conclude that the leader have the support of the nationality of that fascim ? That really seems like propaganda.
Why shall we trust a poll in fascist state at war,
What do you think the actual numbers are? How far off is this poll in your conspiracy theory?
I don’t give a shit if those numbers are right or true. It’s not changing anything
Zionism is a religious movement.
It’s also nationalist, and jewish supremacist.
Also religion is the main tool used to make people commit atrocities.
No, it’s not. Again the biggest organization that support zionism is evangelist. A lot of atheist people are atheist, and a lot of jews are not zionist, or are anti-zionist. You making short link that break solidarity and make confusion their.
Yes religion used to justify nationalism, colonialist, imperialist and apaththeid… as a propaganda. We don’t fighting Israej in repeating its propaganda.
Yiddish culture has piratically been destroy by Israel policy. Jews from Ethiopia (Falashas) has been sterilized by force the Israel. Being Jews or not is unrelated with Israel.
The ideology that the jewish people are owed the promised land of Jerusalem, by god, and that any means to control that holy land are justified, is 100% absolutely a RELIGIOUS extremist beleif.
Stop being delusional
During demo for palestine, we were a lot of Jews; some not practising, some without belief, and some orthodoxe. If you are surprised, by one of those statement, you may reconsider what you think of who are jews or not; because is neither to you or Israel to decide.
Christian Bible said that everyone have to be convert; I would not say that every Christian are intolerant to other bielief. It’s obvious that every christians to not believe in eevrything in the bible. Why Jews couldn’t do the same with the Torah ?
Living in a land is unrelated to forbid anyone else to do the same. Jews where diving there for millennium before the colonization. And finally, if you thing that we all have to be fundamentalists, the Torah said that the diaspora is is a divine punition, and that this is the role of the messiah to lead us to Israel. Lots of orthodoxe are anti-zionist saying that only god thogh the messiah could allow us to move in Israel.
Sorry but you don’t no shit
Jews and Zionists are two distinct groups.
Zionists are jewish extremists, just like ISIS is an extremist islamic group.
No Zionist are not jews extremists. . Some Jews extremist are, and zionist are not jews. Some Zionist are christians extremist, some zionist are atheist. Zionism is preteding to defend Jewish people. Its racist and colonial against people of Palestine, people from maghreb or Africa, and it could be antisemitic too : https://lemmy.wtf/post/22551217
Why do you inquiry people based on their religion, and not their social class or nationality ?
Because Israel, in effect, has two different nationalities: Jewish Israeli and Palestinian Israeli. Polling without considering this simply results in less useful data.
so you say that nationalities are more accurate than religion. That’s my point
They’re citizenships, not nationalities.
Israel does this almost unique thing in the World which is split Citizenship from Nationality, with those who have the former only having the latter if they’re Jews (constitutionally only a Jew can be an Israeli national). Further Israeli Citizenship is broken into Jewish Israeli and Non-Jewish Israeli, with the latter having less rights than the former (for example, Non-Jewish Israeli Citizens require “authorization” from local authorities to go live in certain parts of the country).
Israel was set up as an Apartheid state from the very beginning.
That said the other poster made a mistake: Palestinians are not Israelis - not even Non-Jewish Israeli Citizens - and have no rights at all in Israel. Further, there is no right to Israeli Citizenship by being born in Israel (unless you’re a Jew: any Jew, anywhere in the World, has a right to Israeli Nationality, which also gives them Jewish Israeli Citizenship).
This has interesting effects such as people whose families have lived in Jerusalem for generations not having Israeli Citizenship because it was denied to them even though they were born there and lived there their whole lives. Of course, all of these people are not Jewish as all Jews constitutionally have a right to Israeli Nationality.
So By Law Israel has 3 different classes of people living there, in decreasing order of the rights they have:
- Jews, which by law are all Israeli Nationals (a Jew can literally arrive in Tel-Aviv, ask for Israeli Nationality and get it) and hence are also Jewish Israeli Citizens.
- Non-Jewish Israeli Citizens
- Non-Israeli Citizen, which includes all Palestinians even those born in the territory of Israel as Israel can and frequently does simply refuse to give them even just Non-Jewish Israeli Citizenship.
How do they gatekeep who can be Jewish?
The don’t gatekeep Jewishness, they gatekeep Israeli Nationality on the basis of being Jewish or not.
I have no idea how they determine who is a Jew and who is not.
What I do know, which is pretty damn interesting, is that Etiopian Jews, who are Black, did got Israeli Nationality when they came to Israel and asked for it, same as all other Jews but from what I read the State Of Israel still treated them differently (for example, see here, though this being Britain and the BBC they’re likely reporting a milder subset of reality).
Good old white colonialism…
If the Germans could determine whether someone was Jewish, I’m sure there must be several perfectly reasonable and objective ways of doing it.
Okay so what’s your point?
Nationalities (or citizenships has pointed by @Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) are made by the ruling class, and have no reality in it-selves. I don’t say we couldn’t used those categories, but we have to stay critic.
If not, we will hide some solidarity or antagonism between class. Israel threat a lot of people, including Jews (Falashas, Sefarad, Yiddish, …), and is supported by anti-semits (radical evangelists, far right party, nazi organization), …
A poll based on legal categories in an apartheid state is accurate. However, using the name chosen by the nationalist propaganda (i.e “Jews” and not “Jewish Citizenship”) is taking part in this propaganda, and have disastrous effect.
This is not the first pollster that finds these results. You are probably just unfamiliar with how fascist Israeli society is.
That’s not the point. This a fascist state, which imply a massive support from the population, their is no debate.
So we have to stop being so naive. What say those numbers ? Who allow those numbers to exists ? What those numbers do not tell ? Why nobody ask themselves those questions ?
- Those numbers in showing racial struggle may hide social struggle or imperialist struggle
- in a fascist state at ware, this poll could have been invisibilized or forbid by the Israel. So, it may help it’s propaganda
- I don’t think any difference in the support of Israeli people to they fascist government that the support of people in western countries to their own government. In focusing in this imperialistic situation, may be a lot of people could avoid to fight it. Even if we are more efficient their, and it’s may help Palestine
Finally, some racist people may attack jews around the world because of the confusion made between us and Israel. And again, that confusion is one of the objective of Israel propaganda
So you’re saying this poll is a fascist plot? And zios actually are super kind to palestinians? gtfo.
All my statements are against the state of Israel (and any imperialist state), and against Zionism (and every state nationalism). I’m just afraid that people are confused between jews and zionist. And you short reading trend to prove my right
As a Native American my heart goes out to all Palestinians effected by these ignorant Zionist we must be better than this we can be better than this.
There’s some weird looking Haredi Jews waving their arms and blabbering something about Materialism in that 18 percent.
Anyone surprised? Nasi state governed by nazis, who were elected by nazis thinking they are more than others. Fuck israel.
I support expelling israelis.
If you know anything about the genocidal ideology of zionism, this should be absolutely no surprise. It’s always been like this. Haven’t people watched any interviews with zios? Don’t y’all know any zios? These people are brainwashed racists at best.
I know a Palestinian talking to Israelis on omegle . Most of them are so disgusting and racists.
This new documentary serie is cool https://youtu.be/AEiL_5h14pY
The thing is: I can understand them.
If you are part of a minority that was trampled on for a long, long period of time, being targeted for anhiliation and now, having a somewhat safe nation for not even 80 years within a sea of other nations wanting to destroy them… well, i absolutely can understand them to ensure their safety whatever it takes. Yeah, it may not be pretty (or to be more precise: Often outright gross), it may not be “fair”… but i can understand that they don’t want to take any chances.
You feddit.org people no longer even hide that you don’t care about palestinians
I care as much about the Palestinians as i care about the Israelis… from my personal point of view i have as much emotional investment in them as with any other people that kill eachother in other parts of the world, so not very much.
This clown is literally posting “both sides”!!! Disgusting nonsense.
That’s how the majority of feddit.org users are . You never find those type of guys in post about Palestinians getting murdered
No you don’t. If you care about both you would advocate for ending the occupation instead of saying that you understand that some jews want genociding palestinians who has nothing to do with the nazis that almost genocided them .
It’s like you if you where alive during Nate Turner revolt saying I care about both salves and slaves owners
I agree, but I will add that they are also indoctrinated from a young age to hate or fear the Palestinians. I don’t really think the long history means as much other than an excuse to continue the indoctrination.
I mean if I grew up being told the neighbor was a dangeous crazy heathen that is hell bent on killing me. And that neighbor occasionally threw explosives over the fence. I would want them gone no matter if they had a good reason or what not.
Article is walled, so I couldn’t read it. But I bet the questions were setup to differentiate expelling them from killing them. So I can understand a lot of people wanting the Palestinians gone. That doesn’t mean the same number agree with what is being done to make it happen.
I agree, but I will add that they are also indoctrinated from a young age to hate or fear the Palestinians. I don’t really think the long history means as much other than an excuse to continue the indoctrination.
The same could be said for the other side… which is the reason i think this conflict is absolutely hopeless…
And that neighbor occasionally threw explosives over the fence.
What if they’re throwing explosives because you occasionally murder your neighbors by the dozen?
how can you understand them? the israeli state isn’t a ensuring safety for anyone, practically any western nation is safer, unless you are also purely invested in the idea of the state being the condition and site of safety for a nation and blatantly ignoring reality to the point that wishing for ethnic cleansing seems reasonable
which is also known as being a frothing at the mouth fascist
Somehow i have the feeling that i will regret further participating in this conversation, but i feel somewhat masochistic today:
Any western nation is safer because no western nation is surrounded by countries that would happily do to the israelis what the israelis currently are doing to the palestinians. Yes, its unfair and brutal, but as a nation of a people that was selected for annihilation just about 90 years ago i personaly can understand that they are willing to commit every atrocity needed to ensure that nobody will attack them.
Do i LIKE it? Hell no! Would i like a better solution where everyone over there lives in peace? Absolutely! But i can UNDERSTAND why they acting the way they do.
Yes, its unfair and brutal
it’s not just unfair and brutal, it’s also completely irrational, israel has sacrficed actual conditions of safety for israeli jews and israelis in general in favour of an image of safety that’s completely worthless outside of being soothing to fascists
but as a nation of a people that was selected for annihilation just about 90 years ago i personaly can understand that they are willing to commit every atrocity needed to ensure that nobody will attack them.
roma people were in the exact same camps historically and they don’t seem to be exhibiting the same genocidal attitudes, neither do non-israeli jews, hardship doesn’t necessarily make one a fascist
you should ask yourself why the ideological depravity of israeli society makes sense to you, when it hasn’t led to any good results for anyone
Do i LIKE it?Hell no! Would i like a better solution where everyone over there lives in peace? Absolutely! But i can UNDERSTAND why they acting the way they do.
i can understand how they are acting the way they do, as in, what lead to the motives historically, what the ideological undertones of them are; but the why completely eludes me
also, do you actually believe that a ‘better solution’ is possible? or are you just gesturing at futility and imploring people to accept tough realities or whatever
Any western nation is safer because no western nation is surrounded by countries that would happily do to the israelis what the israelis currently are doing to the palestinians.
why do you suppose that’s the case now? sentiments towards jewish people in europe were worse than they are in any country neighboring israel
As a Jewish person, genuenly what the fuck are you talking about? The occupation of Palestine is a prime lesson of what not to do as an oppressed people. This is exactly why we need international solidarity, because the rights of one people must never trample over the rights of another.
Oh you so empathetic. I guess you can understand the Hamas attackers on October the 7th, too then? Right?
Oh i can understand them also very well… but this doesn’t change anything. Neither side is “good” or “bad” over there, both sides have very good reasons to keep on fighting.
No, I think the side using starvation tactics and bombing civilians is pretty bad. Sounds like war crimes to me in terms of definition we’ve all agreed upon.
How about the side using suicide bombers and defaulting to terrorism? Shooting unguided rockets into the general direction of a city also does not scream “good guys”, am i right?
Who’s actually using terrorism? Maybe the terrorists that have murdered tens of thousands of children? Expelled people from their homes? Stolen land and still stealing more in several countries?
I can’t even imagine being this dumb. Phony account probably.
Imagine "both sides"ing a genocide. These people are braindead creeps. Not worth engaging.
Well that fear is being exploited by those with more sinister motives.
Just because you can understand how we got here doesn’t mean that it’s ok, or even inevitable.
I think at this moment the total annihilation of one of the two sides is ineviteable, too much blood has been spilled too much atrocities were conducted on both sides.
You’re so full of shit. Jews have lived in almost every middle eastern country for millennia. There were Jews living in Palestine before the Zionists came. The “sea of other nations wanting to destroy them” don’t hate Israel because it’s a Jewish country. They hate Israel because it’s a fascist settler colonial state that historically has done ethnic cleansing and territorial expansion. You’re just a Zionazi trying to weaponize antisemitism to justify a literal genocide.
If you are part of a minority that was trampled on for a long, long period of time,
It’s anti-semitic to conflate judaism with zionism. Zionists were collaborating with the nazis and using the holocaust to steal land in palestine during ww2.
I really don’t give a shit
You build a state out of colonialism, you get a state of colonialists.
