Swedish climate and human rights activist Greta Thunberg departed Israel on a flight to France after being detained by Israeli forces aboard an aid ship bound for Gaza.
What would you call intercepting someone in international waters and taking them back to your country without their consent? If Somali pirates did that you’d have no qualms using the word ‘kidnapped’.
The blockade is illegal and israel didn’t do it job to allow enough food and aid to enter which is an obligation. They are even shooting people seeking aid
Yeah it’s real typical for kidnappings to be publicly known, announced in advance and then the victim safetly returned promptly, entirely unharmed. Im sure you can fram it as a kidnapping with some backflips, but you just look like a whiny child.
She was captured and held unlawfully sure, but if it was actually for humanitarian aid and not self publicity, i might have some sympathy.
Can’t really agree with you on this one. I would welcome and fight for more people doing the right thing for personal benefit. Seems a lot better than the current circumstances.
Yes. The only tatoo idea I have for myself involves dice, chains, and the words “Let’s tempt Fate.” While I would prefer an ideal situation, it’s taking too long. I will support any act that brings aid, supplies, or more notoriety to the plight of Gaza. Even Al-Capone had a soup kitchen for the hungry Chicagans of the Great Depression.
If you want this conflict to end the last thing you want to give it is more noteriety. The only reason this is still happening is because of outside influences.
Can you please elaborate on that connection from your perspective. I imagine there must be some context I am overlooking.
Willful ignorance of atrocities does not have any chance of stopping or slowing them.
Source: Russian Gulags, North Korea, US native women murders/trafficking, Auschwitz.
All the shouting and “notoriety” just makes it worse. Turns it into a spectacle instead of actually fixing anything. Sometimes, less outside noise is exactly what’s needed for people to sort their own mess out. Wayne Dyer said, “Conflict cannot survive without your participation.”
Ahh yes, because that solves the bystander effect which is why Kitty Genovese did not die from being stabbed in 1964. Also why the Uvalde police are heros for not participating in that school shooting. /s
You still haven’t explained any of your reasoning, so I will assume it is in bad faith.
Finally, your quote is about interpersonal conflict, not violence and murder. Mr. Dyer was a therapist.
Israel does not feel a need to hide their crimes because they believe any action they take is righteous because they are doing it and any action their enemies take is evil because they are doing it
I mean, honestly it worked for privateers. Hold up a ship, steal their gold and liquor, leave a month’s rations, and sail on. Come to think of it, old school pirates probably had more empathy than Israeli leaders…
When the UN doesn’t stop the Israeli’s from declaring it a conflict zone. It’s technically not kidnapping. Just like how the US abducted people in Iraq and Afghanistan.
No. They never entered anywhere Israel is legally allowed to exclude even in war It being full of aid and verifiable non combatants.
It’s kidnapping.
Just like how the US abducted people in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Your example is also kidnapping but even excluding that bit of nuance the key word is “in” they never entered territorial waters and thus were never “in” Israel or Palestine. Israel can declare 1500mi of the coast of Somalia an exclusion zone then kidnap people there and that would make just as much sense in a legal view.
Something like that but the important thing is Israel is not claiming they entered the exclusion zone and similarly they even if they did the result is supposed to be being forcibly turned away not kidnapping and property theft.
The flotilla was told several times to turn around or be detained. They decided to not turn around and continued on their intended course to breach the naval blockade.
According to international maritime law Israel can intercept and detain before they enter.
Notice you never said they did breach the blockade which btw by international law they have to be given time and allowed to leave even if they enter without permission which they didn’t do nor is Israel claiming they did.
Intercept and detain yes, board, seizur, deport and treat as their own… No because duh.
Just like police can arrest you before you commit a crime, if you loudly and repeatedly proclaim the intention to commit it.
They were asked repeatedly to change course and refused.
Boarding, capturing the ship, confiscating cargo, and holding crew is exactly what international maritime law says is legal and customary in such situations like a blockade.
A. Jurisdiction.
B. You’re confusing ras with PC , you need pc for arrest you need ras to detain.
Because they don’t have to, they’re well outside the blockade and Israel doesn’t own the ocean.
No, international law says a ship entering a blockade illegally can be boarded and detained after they’ve been given a chance to leave the area… If they have to be given a chance to leave you can’t steal their property and kidnap their crew, that’s a crime.
Read the law and don’t double post the same thing to me please.
Gaza is under a declared blockade, Maritime Law (the oldest of international law) allows detaining any ship bound for a blockaded port. It’s really cut and dry, they very publicly declared they were bound for a blockaded port. It’s not like Israel boarded a ship that just happened to be in the area, these freedom flotilla yahoos very publicly declared they were bound for Gaza, which under Maritime Law permits Israel to board it.
International law is an agreement between nations and doesn’t actually restrict nations from doing things that will hurt your feelings. You’re going down the sovcit path when you pretend international law is whatever you want it to be.
they very publicly declared they were bound for a blockaded port.
Not illegal.
which under Maritime Law permits Israel to board it.
Not detain and seize, maritime law is very specific in that a blockade cannot block aid unreasonably. A super famous ship you’ve searched that’s filled solely with celebrities and aid is something you shouldn’t turn away so long as they accept security arrangements like boarding and searching. This isn’t star wars nor are they the trade union and total blockades like your implying are very illegal as defined by the law you’re sourcing.
Outside the blockade area and on the high seas,34 belligerents relied on the practice of "visit and search"3s to stop vessels suspected of carrying “con-traband” to the enemy.36 A belligerent warship sailing on the high seas had the right to visit and search all merchant vessels. Merchants found carrying enemy contraband were captured and escorted to the belligerent’s nearest home port. The belligerent nation’s prize court then determined the fate of the captured ship and cargo.37 In cases where merchants resisted either capture or visit and search, the blockading force was entitled to pursue and, if neces-sary, damage or destroy the vessel to force the ship to submit.
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belligerents today continue to enforce blockades from long distance or through blockade zones. They do so because of three twentieth-century developments in maritime warfare: first, the growing importance to belligerents of conducting economic warfare in conjunction with armed con-flict;s3 second, the introduction of a large array of new weapons to the maritime battlefield; and third, the proliferation of modern weapons to less powerful nations incapable of conducting traditional blockade. In combination, these three developments have forced states to replace traditional blockade form with long-distance blockade or blockade zones.
It’s not like Israel boarded a ship that just happened to be in the area,
That’s exactly what happened, blockade borders have to be announced and ships have to be allowed time to leave the area. Israel left their blockade and kidnapped people aboard a ship they did not allow to leave an area they weren’t in.
these freedom flotilla yahoos very publicly declared they were bound for Gaza, which under Maritime Law permits Israel to board it.
Once they breach the blockade yes arguably though with only aid that gets more complex. Essentially aid entry is allowed so long as you agree to security arrangements that are both reasonable and lawful. That could mean Israel could board and search, or doesn’t mean they can blockade all aid to starve a population which is specifically and in multiple very very illegal.
Their sources section is awash with good relevant information and specifically findings on the last Israeli famous Israeli blockade and subsequent boarding (and death of iirc 9) which was found to be a legal blockade so long as the purpose was not starvation and aid could enter with security arrangements.
An operation involving naval and air forces by which a belligerent completely prevents movement by sea from or to a port or coast belonging to or occupied by an enemy belligerent. To be mandatory, that is, for third States to be obliged to respect it, the blockade must be effective. This means that it must be maintained by a force sufficient to prevent all access to the enemy coast.
So… according to the link you’ve provided Israel is actually required to board the ship or they can no longer prevent shipments of weapons coming from Iran?
Essentially aid entry is allowed so long as you agree to security arrangements that are both reasonable and lawful.
Has there been any indication these flotilla activists attempted to make such security arrangements with Israel?
So… according to the link you’ve provided Israel is actually required to board the ship or they can no longer prevent shipments of weapons coming from Iran?
Ah yeah it would be so bad if people who got starved and firebomb for 2 years could defend themself \s
Correct to an extent, the accepted meaning is that they must agree to security measures to pass through. It is not and never has been a way to willfully prevent aid and aide staff into combat zones.
They weren’t in a blockaded zone as far as I’m aware, Israel only says they were approaching and providing intented destination as you must when attempting to pass through a blockade.
Even ignoring that they must be allowed to leave even if they enter the blockaded area without permission, it isn’t a seize your property and imprison your crew for being in the general area openly providing intent kinda thing.
Correct, they hadn’t entered the area yet though so they technically heeded their warning.
Stolen, if you take something from someone and dispense it as your own you’re guilty of theft and conversion something they say Hamas does with aid. And moreover delivering aid doesn’t negate the whole unlawful boarding, seizure and forcible human trafficking thing.
I feel like indie news is more important than ever, even if it means hand-cranked mimeos and passing them from person to person. Telecom can be cut at any time.
Kidnapping. The word you’re ignoring is kidnapping.
Captured or arrested is the word you’re actually looking for. Or, as it currently stands, released.
Y’all are delusional trying to make 'kidnapping" a thing 🤣
They was jailed for navigating on internal water. It is illegal therefore it’s abduction
What would you call intercepting someone in international waters and taking them back to your country without their consent? If Somali pirates did that you’d have no qualms using the word ‘kidnapped’.
It’s a blockade for a war zone. Standard practice for centuries, unless they just shoot you which was the previous option for most of humanity.
Now let’s get pedantic and have someone screech that Israel doesn’t recognize Palestine and it’s not a war so no blockade 🙄
The blockade is illegal and israel didn’t do it job to allow enough food and aid to enter which is an obligation. They are even shooting people seeking aid
Israel does not recognise that there are civilian non-combatants in Gaza and therefore does not allow aid to enter. How about you?
It’s not kidnapping if Israel does it apparently 🤨
Yeah it’s real typical for kidnappings to be publicly known, announced in advance and then the victim safetly returned promptly, entirely unharmed. Im sure you can fram it as a kidnapping with some backflips, but you just look like a whiny child. She was captured and held unlawfully sure, but if it was actually for humanitarian aid and not self publicity, i might have some sympathy.
She was kidnapped then released while other are still in jail for doing nothing illegal
Good. They’re interfering in things they hardly understand.
They understand everything about israel 57 years of occupation
Ha, dont believe that for a minute.
You’re a piece of shit
Can’t really agree with you on this one. I would welcome and fight for more people doing the right thing for personal benefit. Seems a lot better than the current circumstances.
Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, in my experience, backfires more often than not. It’s a dangerous gamble.
Yes. The only tatoo idea I have for myself involves dice, chains, and the words “Let’s tempt Fate.” While I would prefer an ideal situation, it’s taking too long. I will support any act that brings aid, supplies, or more notoriety to the plight of Gaza. Even Al-Capone had a soup kitchen for the hungry Chicagans of the Great Depression.
If you want this conflict to end the last thing you want to give it is more noteriety. The only reason this is still happening is because of outside influences.
Can you please elaborate on that connection from your perspective. I imagine there must be some context I am overlooking.
Willful ignorance of atrocities does not have any chance of stopping or slowing them. Source: Russian Gulags, North Korea, US native women murders/trafficking, Auschwitz.
All the shouting and “notoriety” just makes it worse. Turns it into a spectacle instead of actually fixing anything. Sometimes, less outside noise is exactly what’s needed for people to sort their own mess out. Wayne Dyer said, “Conflict cannot survive without your participation.”
Ahh yes, because that solves the bystander effect which is why Kitty Genovese did not die from being stabbed in 1964. Also why the Uvalde police are heros for not participating in that school shooting. /s
You still haven’t explained any of your reasoning, so I will assume it is in bad faith.
Finally, your quote is about interpersonal conflict, not violence and murder. Mr. Dyer was a therapist.
Israel does not feel a need to hide their crimes because they believe any action they take is righteous because they are doing it and any action their enemies take is evil because they are doing it
Couldnt you say much the same for the other side?
Both sides aren’t the same idiot. One of them is getting genocided and the other one is delivering the bombs
Only one side is doing genocide, scumbag
So if somali pirates would just take the ship and send the crew back home it would all be good?
You’re having an interesting opinion here.
I mean, honestly it worked for privateers. Hold up a ship, steal their gold and liquor, leave a month’s rations, and sail on. Come to think of it, old school pirates probably had more empathy than Israeli leaders…
Inequivalent.
you sure act like a whiny child, when faced with some solid arguments.
That’s fine
How so.
When the UN doesn’t stop the Israeli’s from declaring it a conflict zone. It’s technically not kidnapping. Just like how the US abducted people in Iraq and Afghanistan.
No. They never entered anywhere Israel is legally allowed to exclude even in war It being full of aid and verifiable non combatants.
It’s kidnapping.
Your example is also kidnapping but even excluding that bit of nuance the key word is “in” they never entered territorial waters and thus were never “in” Israel or Palestine. Israel can declare 1500mi of the coast of Somalia an exclusion zone then kidnap people there and that would make just as much sense in a legal view.
Doesn’t Israel delegate 200 miles off the coast as a no go zone?
Something like that but the important thing is Israel is not claiming they entered the exclusion zone and similarly they even if they did the result is supposed to be being forcibly turned away not kidnapping and property theft.
The flotilla was told several times to turn around or be detained. They decided to not turn around and continued on their intended course to breach the naval blockade.
According to international maritime law Israel can intercept and detain before they enter.
No they can’t especially when the blockade is illegal
Notice you never said they did breach the blockade which btw by international law they have to be given time and allowed to leave even if they enter without permission which they didn’t do nor is Israel claiming they did.
Intercept and detain yes, board, seizur, deport and treat as their own… No because duh.
Just like police can arrest you before you commit a crime, if you loudly and repeatedly proclaim the intention to commit it.
They were asked repeatedly to change course and refused.
Boarding, capturing the ship, confiscating cargo, and holding crew is exactly what international maritime law says is legal and customary in such situations like a blockade.
A. Jurisdiction. B. You’re confusing ras with PC , you need pc for arrest you need ras to detain.
Because they don’t have to, they’re well outside the blockade and Israel doesn’t own the ocean.
No, international law says a ship entering a blockade illegally can be boarded and detained after they’ve been given a chance to leave the area… If they have to be given a chance to leave you can’t steal their property and kidnap their crew, that’s a crime.
Read the law and don’t double post the same thing to me please.
Illegally
Gaza is under a declared blockade, Maritime Law (the oldest of international law) allows detaining any ship bound for a blockaded port. It’s really cut and dry, they very publicly declared they were bound for a blockaded port. It’s not like Israel boarded a ship that just happened to be in the area, these freedom flotilla yahoos very publicly declared they were bound for Gaza, which under Maritime Law permits Israel to board it.
International law is an agreement between nations and doesn’t actually restrict nations from doing things that will hurt your feelings. You’re going down the sovcit path when you pretend international law is whatever you want it to be.
Not illegal.
Not detain and seize, maritime law is very specific in that a blockade cannot block aid unreasonably. A super famous ship you’ve searched that’s filled solely with celebrities and aid is something you shouldn’t turn away so long as they accept security arrangements like boarding and searching. This isn’t star wars nor are they the trade union and total blockades like your implying are very illegal as defined by the law you’re sourcing.
Pretty sure the blockade laws of the sea weren’t intended to implement genocide, asshole.
Source?
Ew.
https://openyls.law.yale.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.13051/8684/43_101YaleLJ893_1991_1992_.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
Page 898
Page 901
That’s exactly what happened, blockade borders have to be announced and ships have to be allowed time to leave the area. Israel left their blockade and kidnapped people aboard a ship they did not allow to leave an area they weren’t in.
Once they breach the blockade yes arguably though with only aid that gets more complex. Essentially aid entry is allowed so long as you agree to security arrangements that are both reasonable and lawful. That could mean Israel could board and search, or doesn’t mean they can blockade all aid to starve a population which is specifically and in multiple very very illegal.
https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/blockade
Their sources section is awash with good relevant information and specifically findings on the last Israeli famous Israeli blockade and subsequent boarding (and death of iirc 9) which was found to be a legal blockade so long as the purpose was not starvation and aid could enter with security arrangements.
So… according to the link you’ve provided Israel is actually required to board the ship or they can no longer prevent shipments of weapons coming from Iran?
Has there been any indication these flotilla activists attempted to make such security arrangements with Israel?
Yeah it would really be bad if the genocidees could defend themselves
Removed by mod
Ah yeah it would be so bad if people who got starved and firebomb for 2 years could defend themself \s
Piece of shit
Correct to an extent, the accepted meaning is that they must agree to security measures to pass through. It is not and never has been a way to willfully prevent aid and aide staff into combat zones.
They weren’t in a blockaded zone as far as I’m aware, Israel only says they were approaching and providing intented destination as you must when attempting to pass through a blockade.
Even ignoring that they must be allowed to leave even if they enter the blockaded area without permission, it isn’t a seize your property and imprison your crew for being in the general area openly providing intent kinda thing.
Israel has told the flotilla repeatedly they can deliver the aid through the proper channels and the port of Ashdod.
The small amount of captured aid from the freedom flotilla is being delivered to Gaza by Israel at the moment.
Correct, they hadn’t entered the area yet though so they technically heeded their warning.
Stolen, if you take something from someone and dispense it as your own you’re guilty of theft and conversion something they say Hamas does with aid. And moreover delivering aid doesn’t negate the whole unlawful boarding, seizure and forcible human trafficking thing.
They put it in quotes.
Funny how they are careful with words when they were literally on international water.
I feel like indie news is more important than ever, even if it means hand-cranked mimeos and passing them from person to person. Telecom can be cut at any time.