“82% of Israelis want to expel Palestinians from Gaza; 47% want to kill every man, woman, child in Gaza”
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2025/05/30/poll-israelis-expel-palestinians-gaza-genocide/
It would be very interesting to see how Palestinians would respond to the same questions.
All of the land occupied by Israel is stolen from Palestinians, they would be justified in wanting them out and their homes back. But if you ask them they generally say they don’t necessarily want to evict anyone, most of the average people there just want to live and have sovereignty.
Would you say that a jewish Israeli whose ancestors lived there in 1800 had stolen the land from Palestinians? What if they immigrated there in 1880 and built a hut in the desert? Not to make light of the situation but I hope you understand there’s more nuance than the trope “jews arrived there on a boat in '46 and claimed the land”. The idea that we should merge all the different nations that emerged back into a resurrected Ottoman Empire to make everyone who was wronged whole again is just unworkable.
Everyone who came after British colonization is a colonist. And especially those who came after 1948 Nakba
I’m happy you’re at least seeing the nuance lol
It would be very interesting to see how Jews would respond to the same questions about Nazis
Same question from you.
See, sometimes there is this thing called “both sides can be wrong” but in this case the power imbalance combined with 5 decades of Israel terrorizing Palestinians makes it that you can just safely say that Israel is the guilty party here, period, end of discussion
This issue isn’t new. 4 decades ago as a child I read about abuses from Israel against Palestinians. 4 decades ago I remember someone making national headlines because she dated to hang a Palestine flag from her house. She was immediately labelled an anti-Semite, whereas all she wanted was some basic support for suffering Palestinians.
Don’t even start about Hamas. Hamas is at least in part funded by Israel to be a terrorist group so that Netanyahu had an excuse to continue to terrorize Palestinians.
You can’t take all that and then say “weeeeellll, but Palestinians have done bad things too, you know!”
I’m sure they did, I’m sure they have. I’m also sure it’s irrelevant as it’s literally pennies to the dollars that Israel is doing and has been doing since it’s founding
I’m at the point where I wonder if the Israeli as a state should continue to exist. It’s toxic, it’s at the source of almost every conflict in the middle east since WWII. It continuously attacks everyone around them. It sends in tanks and military to kill children who dared to throw stones. Then you keep seeing these polls where the majority of Jews in Israel have, shall we say euphemistically, rather dark opinions. I keep seeing videos of entire neighborhoods rallying being extremely racist against anyone who is not Jewish. I keep seeing videos of these
settlersinvaders who just steal Palestinian homes and lands. You see targetted campaigns against anyone world wide who even dares to speak up against this toxic behavior. This shit has been going on like this for decades now.It really really makes me wonder if that state there is such a good idea in the first place.
And I’m sure I’ll be labeled anti semite for expressing these opinions but that word has lost all its meaning. It used to be something really bad because in WWII Jews were massacred. But what are we supposed to do, say, or think when now, today, 80 something years later, it’s Israel doing the massacring?
Questions like yours are so extremely disingenuous…
It would be very interesting to see how Jews would respond to the same questions about Nazis
I dunno. There’s a lot you can say about the jews, but I don’t really think they were trying to create a zionist state inside Germany in the 1930’s…
that Israel is the guilty party here, period, end of discussion
Ever since the 1920’s both zionists and muslim arab-nationalists have been duking it out over the spoils of the Ottoman Empire to carve out their own country.
There were a lot of states created from the Ottoman Empire. Most of those borders were carved along ethnic and religious lines and spoiler alert: they weren’t decided through peace and friendship.
It’s interesting to see how people would compare Israel’s guilt to that of, say, Turkey. The latter put a genocide on 1,5 million Armenians to carve out their territory. There’s a bit of irony to be found when people argue that Israel shouldn’t exist because there’s conflict. Had they followed the Turks’ example back in '48, the memory of their sins would have started fading into history the very next day.
It’s interesting to see how people would compare Israel’s guilt to that of, say, Turkey. The latter put a genocide on 1,5 million Armenians to carve out their territory.
And if you have paid attention, there are quite few voices there as well to officially recognize it as a genocide. It’s also rather important to add the bit where this happened before the word genocide existed. Lastly, if we go back far enough in history we’ll find dozens of examples that would have been genocides but again, we didn’t really have that concept setup until after WWII. From the Wikipedia article on genocide
The 1946 judgement against Arthur Greiser issued by a Polish court was the first legal verdict that mentioned the term, using Lemkin’s original definition.
Also I made the argument that Israel perhaps shouldn’t exist because it has been an agressor from pretty much day one and it has continued this to the point where there is a clear pattern of aggression. Though the Turks, to continue your example, suppress the Kurds, I haven’t seen turkey attack nearly all of its neighbors, and they have definitely not committed genocide in the past 50 years
Israel, on the other side, has been in countless wars with countless countries. It executed (understandable but still) extrajudicial executions, it has subjugated Palestinians to the worst atrocities seen since WWII for over 5 decades now. Hell, they’ve been funding terrorists (Hamas) just so they could continue murdering innocent Palestinian with a flimsy excuse. They regularly let “settlers” (nice euphemism there) steal Palestinian houses and land, and if Palestinians resisted even the slightest bit, they’d be murdered without repercussions. For decades.
I’d argue that there is a clear structural pattern of aggression and violence from this state, hence the question: should this state continue to exist? Because if it does so in its current form, I guarantee you that the middle east will never find peace.
Then, Palestinians aren’t trying to create a state within Israel. They had their lands, were driven off of it, Hardee’s in small areas which are the places they’d like to have their independent state with Israel being a neighbor.
And yeah, the way that the middle east was carved up was asking for trouble, because of course it was. That, however, doesn’t excuse anything that Israel is doing today nor anything of what it has been doing for decades.
and they have definitely not committed genocide in the past 50 years
Well that’s my point, innit?
You don’t hold that against Turkey as much, even though they murdered more than ten times as many innocent people because, well, “it’s been a while now”.
If Israel had just murdered all of the muslim Palestinian population in '48, you’d say they were better than Turkey.
Why would Palestinians want Palestinians expelled from Gaza?
Your answer gives me a chuckle because I was wondering if I had to type it ‘toddler-proof’ to prevent people making a funny instead of an answer ;-)
I had to. Was compelled to. The world being what it is, I gotta make levity where I can.
Removed by mod
Why would you say they deserved it? Do you think Israelis would ‘deserve it’?
The Israeli state at least, like the German Nazi state during WW2, does deserve to be destroyed. Palestinians have had a life of continual murder from advanced weaponry at the hands of Israelis, but even they still generally don’t want to kill every Israeli person.
Nazi Germany was only defeated through putting a genocide on the German people, forcing their leadership to give up and surrender. Do you think the Germans who were genocided ‘deserved it’?
Mass killings of civilians were committed against Germany and Japan, and those attacks are widely seen as war crimes, most reasonable people don’t argue that the average German or Japanese worker going about their day deserved getting firebombed. There were mass atrocities but they weren’t defeated by genocide, they were defeated by a military campaign that took out any capacity they had to wage war.
Sure they were. Had the German military chosen to continue the fight through guerilla warfare à la Hamas, the Allies would have continued their genocide of Germany à la Israel. It’s the German military high command that chose to surrender instead of continuing the fight.
There actually was a German resistance movement against the Allied occupation forces. Little known about but they killed about 5.000 occupation troops. The Allies and the US in particular carried out the death penalty for anyone being caught attacking their occupation troops.
Almost certainly similar in spirit, regardless of what their Western fans like to project.
It’s a pretty symmetrical situation, even if they have different skin colours. If only we could treat it that way (edit: and then the capability gap wouldn’t be there either).
Not super relevant though
looks at post title
Honestly deradicalizing and demilitarizing Israel WOULD deradicalize Palestine.
Israel put Hamas in power. Israel literally helped Iran deliver funding and weapons to Hamas for decades.
I think you hit the nail on the head exactly. That’s it, the whole affair in one line.
So here’s a comment which will probably be downvoted to hell, but I can deal with that.
I’m almost 50 years old. Israel and Palestine (plus other surrounding countries) have never been at peace as long as I can think.
There’s always some asshole who thinks fighting a war is the better option. If an Israeli prime minister wants to make peace, they fucking shoot him. If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.
In the meantime, there are at least some people on both sides who wish for nothing more than peace. Yes, we can debate on which side has more of them and it’s damn certain there aren’t enough of them by far.
But can we maybe just stop taking a side? This conflict is not about Israel or Palestine having to be deradicalized, OP, it’s about the all the warmongers and religious fundamentalists and radicals on both sides who need to be deradicalized.
There will never be an end to this as long as I live if we continue to blame either Israel or the Palestinians. Both is wrong, both of them haven’t done nearly enough to stop this insanity.
(But yeah, I totally agree, the current right wing Israeli government is a hopeless case if you want peace.)
This war is about land and imperialist control over the middle east, not religion.
Religion has never been used as anything more than an excuse for pretty much any conflict. It simply can never be a legitimate casus belli.
Hamas is not Palestine and Palestine is not Hamas.
The victims of genocide, apartheid, occupation do not have the same level of culpability as the perpetrators. And it’s not the current right wing government that’s to blame, sorry. It is the whole edifice that the Israelis have built of occupation, apartheid, and now genocide.
You want a moderate palestinian leader? He exists. His name is Marwan Barghouti. And it’s not Hamas that has “done their own thing”. He’s in an Israeli jail, with that worm Ben Gvir torturing him.
And if 50 years seems like a long time to you, and that they should just grow up and accept the fait accompli of the occupation and the defeat, well sorry but that says more about you. I know nothing about you but I wouldn’t be surprised if you come from a cultural background that doesn’t have a history of resistance and struggle for freedom. My Greek ancestors were occupied for 400 years. The Irish for 800. Warmongering? Wars for freedom are just wars. Peace is not the absence of war, it is the presence of justice. No justice? No peace. As simple as that.
So yea, I’m going to take a side.
Hamas is not Palestine and Palestine is not Hamas.
I acknowledged that when I said “If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.”.
The victims of genocide, apartheid, occupation do not have the same level of culpability as the perpetrators.
No, they don’t. There are many blameless Palestinians. And there are Israelis who voted for the current government, they surely carry more guilt in this war than Palestinian victims.
that they should just grow up and accept the fait accompli of the occupation and the defeat, well sorry but that says more about you
Firstly, I never said they have to accept it. If you think war is the only means of not accepting and trying to change it, it says a lot about you. Secondly, someone else in this comment section said: “what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.”
No justice? No peace. As simple as that.
This is why this will never end.
I acknowledged that when I said “If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.”.
Like I told you, it’s Israel that “mows the grass” to make sure no moderate gets ahead. Bargouti is in an Israeli jail.
“what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.”
But that’s the point: if it is not just, it will not be enduring. I don’t understand what is confusing about “no justice no peace”. Justice by the way does not mean that Palestinians get everything. It means that they get enough to feel that they have gotten a deal they can live with. Ireland is a fantastic example here actually. The Irish didn’t get a united Ireland in the early 20th century, but they got an independent country. And in the next chapter of struggle, the republicans and the unionists again didn’t get everything, but they got enough to get to a place they can live with. But Britain had to fucking let go in both cases. The Israelis have to fucking let go and they have to come to terms with what they’ve done and realize that they will have to pay some kind of reparation at the very least.
But that’s the point: if it is not just, it will not be enduring. I don’t understand what is confusing about “no justice no peace”.
Nothing about it is confusing, it is very clear. And it is an absolute position that will make this conflict go on forever. Why? Because in an asymmetric conflict like this, there will always be injustice.
You have to find a way to end this injustice with peaceful means. I refuse to accept that only violence can solve this. That’s all I am saying.
What absolute position? I wrote a whole paragraph after the bit that you quote exactly on why it is not an absolute position.
Justice by the way does not mean that Palestinians get everything. It means that they get enough to feel that they have gotten a deal they can live with. Ireland is a fantastic example here actually. The Irish didn’t get a united Ireland in the early 20th century, but they got an independent country. And in the next chapter of struggle, the republicans and the unionists again didn’t get everything, but they got enough to get to a place they can live with. But Britain had to fucking let go in both cases. The Israelis have to fucking let go and they have to come to terms with what they’ve done and realize that they will have to pay some kind of reparation at the very least.
What absolute position? I wrote a whole paragraph after the bit that you quote exactly on why it is not an absolute position.
Okay, I admit I didn’t pay enough attention to what you wrote. Probably because I don’t like being lectured about history.
But in that case, even better! They tried working on a two-state solution. It was shot down, but you gotta try again. And again. And again.
Everything Israel and the Palestinians are doing at the moment is the exact opposite. They create more violence, hatred, death, destruction and desire for vengeance, which in turn will be the fuel for more decades of war.
Stop both sides-ing for goodness sake! There are no two equal sides here. There are the perpetrators and the victims of a genocide, of apartheid, and of occupation.
Not to mention that you are literally factually wrong. Hamas controls Gaza but the PA controls the West Bank. There is nothing the PA does that “creates violence, hatred, destruction and desire for vengeance” among Israelis. So to be extremely clear YOUR FRAMING IS FACTUALLY WRONG. The PA has recognized Israel, supports the two state solution. The PA is so actively trying to supress radicals that if you look around this thread you will see people accusing it of being collaborationists. And what do they get in response? Colonization, occupation, apartheid, and pogroms. If Israel achieves its war goals and eliminates Hamas from Gaza, the result will be that that insufferable misery also extended there. The Palestinians are literally given a choice of genocide or apartheid, of a quick fiery death or a slow bleeding death. This is Israel’s policy and it isn’t just Bibi, it is the Israeli state policy of the last 30 fucking years.
Hear hear, well said, as a 52 year old, (albeit I’m Lebanese and had my fair share of Israeli wars), it’s been obvious from day 1 Israel has long been practicing blatant apartheid policies in the Gaza strip, and providing IOF support to terrorist settler pogroms in the west bank. The vile entity that is the Israeli government today needs to be torn down and rebuilt to allow for a viable Palestinian state.
I too am taking a side and fuck Israel and the IOF.
Edit: Formatting
No justice? No peace. As simple as that.
And here’s another thought on this: It seems as if quite a lot of arab people (not only the Palestinians) view the mere existence of Israel as an injustice.
Logical conclusion? Obvious…
The existence of Israel in the way it exists now is an injustice.
I know nothing about you but I wouldn’t be surprised if you come from a cultural background that doesn’t have a history of resistance and struggle for freedom.
Is this some kind of attempt to dispute my right to an opinion? Or an attempt to devalue it? I know nothing about you, but come on. I’m sure you can find better arguments for your positions than thinly veiled ad hominems.
No, it is an attempt (maybe ham fisted, in which case I apologize) to make you reflect on whether you have the cultural middleware to really understand that 50 years of occupation is not “forever”, that longer timelines have existed. It’s a call to examine your assumptions.
It’s a call to examine your assumptions.
Nope, it translated to me to “you don’t come from a background of resistance in your country, your opinions automatically don’t matter as much.”
“maybe ham fisted, in which case I apologize”
So now that the misunderstanding is cleared, I call you again to examine your assumptions and blind spots.
But can we maybe just stop taking a side? This conflict is not about Israel or Palestine having to be deradicalized, OP, it’s about the all the warmongers and religious fundamentalists and radicals on both sides who need to be deradicalized.
Partially incorrect, since the vast majority of Israelis clearly support the actions of their current government and army. Now, this could be due to mass propaganda inside Israel. Quite possible, but the numbers are still way too high. The level of support is higher than it was in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, where as we now know, propaganda was constant and ubiquitous.
Moreover, it’s one of very few countries on the planet that have never had a significant peaceful period in their history. Pretty much since its establishment in 1948, Israel has been slaughtering people. Admittedly, not all of it is their fault. I don’t blame them for getting invaded literal hours after declaring independence. However, Europe has experienced this in the past as well, and yet, it managed to forge peace lasting longer than its conflicts.
This, and more, points me to a suggestion that Israel does in fact need to be deradicalized. How we’d go about it, if confirmed to be the case, is an entirely different matter.
You might be surprised that back until around the end of the 80’s, a Palestinian from Gaza could just drive to Tel Aviv to have a coffee with his jewish Israeli friends.
That’s good to know. I’m glad to hear that this was possible at some point.
Though this fact doesn’t really change anything. I wasn’t referring strictly to Palestine. It’s not the only place that Israel has been leveling to the ground, or at least trying to.
Partially incorrect, since the vast majority of Israelis clearly support the actions of their current government and army.
I actually agree with this and nothing I said is in contradiction with this fact. There are still some Israelis, albeit far too few, who want peace.
Israel? The nation that “secretly” detonated a nuclear bomb without any repercussions after the ban?
Israel? The nation that has a plan to nuke as many people as possible if their “promised land” is threatened?
No, not that Israel. There’s no way.
You can already see the hallmark signs of a state funded media campaign to undermine any and all claims that the ceasefire has been broken and continues to be so.
They’re using the fact that people are tired of seeing and reading about horrible things knowing they have no control over it. As a result, the public are now personally invested (mental wellbeing) into the ceasefire being real. Even if the bombing campaign and conditions are nearly identical to pre-“ceasefire” levels, the general public is exhausted and takes the (still propagandized) media’s coverage as truth.
Hypernormalisation keeps coming to mind.
benjamin needs to be prosecuted like he shouldve been, before he got the PM position again.
They are not wrong that Israel is radicalised. However, peace is a process, and what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.
If Israel was actually willing to reconcile and treat Palestinians as equals, the South African model of truth & reconciliation (including amnesty for abuses in exchange for full disclosure of what happened), it wouldn’t be just for the victims, but it would allow both sides to move on peacefully.
The real problem is that Netanyahu, Smoltrich, Ben Gvir etc… don’t actually want peace, so even a neutral truth & reconciliation is currently unlikely to happen without their backers (especially the US) forcing them.
Porque no los dos
You spelled dissolved wrong.
I think Israel is carrying out a genocide and even so my question is: Why not both? Whose responsibility is it, and why uniquely on Israel/Palestine?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY
I’m not naive enough to think this is possible, I’d just be happy if world powers and neighboring countries at least stopped feeding the conflict. Oh, look at me, and I just said I wasn’t into naive hopes.
Sure, one side has 95% of the world’s wealth behind it and the support of the strongest military in history, but yeah both sides are equally responsible and have equal impact on whether the genocide continues…
The most certain way to deradicalize the Palestinians is simply to deradicalize and demilitarize the Israeli state and to dismantle its apartheid and occupation edifice.
The video is stupid because Palestinian DNA traces back to the Canaanites whereas Israelis are from Poland.
It’s both let’s be real
I thought it was hugely funny that after two years of bombing to erase hamas, hamas still stands up armed as if they were never sffected
Kahanism sucks.
Religion is social cancer
Israel is an Atheist project
its the aliens that are making the illuminati cause wars who are at fault.
