Lmao at CCP apologists here. Just cut the noise of “he said, she said”-type of denunciation of sources because it’s “Western” and use Occam’s razor on this. Most people don’t want to be bothered and to just get on with their lives. If the Uyghurs are indeed not being genocided, hundreds if not thousands of them would not bother to protest. Because if they aren’t, they would prefer to simply get on with their own lives. There are too many complaints not to ignore if there is no genocide happening. If there’s smoke, there’s fire.
There’s millions of complains about the covid vaccine causing seizures to autism to magnetism, it doesn’t mean covid vaccines are dangerous, it means you have to examine the selection method.
I’ve been to Urumqi, my takeaway was that I didnt have enough knowledge to understand their situation, and random people who haven’t been within 1000 miles of this place understand even less.
There’s [millions of complains about the covid vaccine causing seizures to autism to magnetism]
Isn’t this a vain and pathetic attempt to throw a red herring, comparing genocide to fake vaccine side effects like magnetism. Where are the millions of complaints you mentioned about vaccines from the website you linked, which is notoriously being doctored (pun intended) by the unqualified, antivaxxer NHS head Robert Kennedy?
Most people don’t complain if they are not being inconvenienced. That’s the point of complaining. Even Tibetans are not complaining about genocide despite the politics, because they’re not being subjected to the same treatment that Uyghurs are being subjected to.
Of course you won’t see much about Urumqi, because you haven’t been to any of the “reeducation camps”. And people who are not in camps would not dare speak about their true feelings.
people who are not in camps would not dare speak about their true feelings.
Bro it’s not 1984, people might not talk about politics online, but they absolutely will describe whatever bullshit they’re dealing with in person.
Wouldn’t it be the other way around? With the right tools online to stay anonymous, they could talk about what they feel. If asked in person, they would not open be so open because they could be talking to a secret police and be sent to one of the camps.
Getting sent to a secret camp because your neighbor is an undercover cop secretly monitoring you for wrongthink is wildly outside of anybody on earth’s experience, except North Korea, allegedly.
Sending a message on wechat and having it not arrive or having your internet cut off for 10 seconds during a live chat because your toddler walked into frame is.
There was one chinese traveler on vacation I met in Hanoi who said some out-of-pocket shit about Hitler saving Germany. I mentioned it to some other chinese folks and they were as baffled as I was, but didn’t think it was productive to confront him. I got the sense that randos with insane views are common enough they don’t have the energy to try to correct them.
undercover cop secretly monitoring you for wrongthink is wildly outside of anybody on earth’s experience, except North Korea, allegedly.
Except Russia, China, Iran, Cuba, and increasingly the US and El Salvador, allegedly.
There was one chinese traveler on vacation I met in Hanoi who said some out-of-pocket shit about Hitler saving Germany. I mentioned it to some other chinese folks and they were as baffled as I was, but didn’t think it was productive to confront him.
Anyone can say anything about Hitler because the Nazi party don’t exist anymore and was enemy of everyone except the fascists. Have you and others tried to criticise the CCP, though?
Nice try with another attempt at another red herring. That’s cute. Got any more strange attempt to derail the argument?
China, Iran, Cuba
I could believe Russia, but the people who’ve been to Cuba I’ve met show its absolutely false. The Iranians and people who’ve traveled to Iran I’ve met suggest there are religious police that do suck, but it technically being punishable doesn’t stop them from criticizing those cops to foreigners.
Have you and others tried to criticise the CCP, though
Yes, like all the time, you just have to ask about a specific policy someone has feelings on.
red herring
I’m trying to give a more general description of criticism and dissent within China.
Lmao
Is there truly nowhere else in the world where a severe drop in birthrates is happening? Is it truly only happening in China?
So the source is an Australian think-tank report written by a Cyber, Technology and security program analyst? And it’s corroborated by Adrian Zenz of all peapole? Not the best of sources.
If “we” is the UN (I dont consider myself part of them), which doesn’t even report on Palestine’s birth rates since the 90s because it doesnt recognize it as a state. Do you have any non-UN based sources? They are obviously western biased.
Like, there’s a lot of stuff happening why is this only a worry in China? America is experiencing a huge birth rate decline as well.
If “we” is the UN (I dont consider myself part of them), which doesn’t even report on Palestine’s birth rates since the 90s because it doesnt recognize it as a state. Do you have any non-UN based sources? They are obviously western biased.
Like, there’s a lot of stuff happening why is this only a worry in China? America is experiencing a huge birth rate decline as well.
Jesus fucking Christ.
The AP got their numbers from the UN. I’ll take an Al Jazeera article, an Indian news article, literally anything orher than western media. Just to see that it’s not a fed headline by western governments.
From 16.70 in 1990 to 11.00 in 2020 in the US. But cute attempt at misrepresentation with the graph.
Please show me a better and more accurate graph than the one i provided, or is the one i provided valid and accurate?
All i presented it as was a graph of the US birth rate. Where is my misrepresentation? I said “here is a graph”. I would love to see your grapgh of the US birthrate that you believe is a better representation.
My entire point is that a lot of places in this world right now is facing massive reductions in birth rates. This feels cherry picked to keep eyes away from western states’ same exact problems. Maybe capitalism is causing it? But the capitalist states cant have that kind of reflection. No, its the
barbariansChinese! Which is why I asked for a non-western source. Show me a source from a latin american or south american organization. An asian one. Literally anything non western please.Buddy all graphs without y labelling is useless.
You could have looked this up yourself, now you look dumb and lazy and any point you were trying to make looks the same.
Fuck off, fascist.
Stop being racist against the Chinese you AmeriKKKan fascistic nazi! Go and read theory! /s
Pretty sure if I criticized the CCP, the wumaos will call me a “汉奸” (“han traitor”) despite me not having PRC Citizenship anymore (and I didn’t even renounce it, they were the ones that revoked it 🤷♂️)
It’s a pretty widely accepted fact that no matter your citizenship, the party will always consider you Chinese ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Out of curiosity, do you know where the phenomenon of Chinese people, outside china, referring to locals as ”外国人“ stems from？I’ve found this fascinating as in english you refer to yourself as a foreigner when you are in another country, not the locals.
Is this just a language thing, or is this also influenced by the mindset brought on by heavier nationalism (than I’m used to, anyway, in Australia), in your opinion?
Out of curiosity, do you know where the phenomenon of Chinese people, outside china, referring to locals as ”外国人“ stems from？I’ve found this fascinating as in english you refer to yourself as a foreigner when you are in another country, not the locals.
Idk what people using Mandarin say, I don’t talk to Mandarin speakers a lot. In Cantonese, its “鬼佬” which is probably most accurately translated as “outsider”, rather than “foreigner” (as in terms of nationality/citizenship). As for “外国人”, I think people just conflate country with ethnicity, and also because the “国” (country) would be referring to the ancestral country, not the country they’re currently at, so I assume it also is supposed to mean “outsider”.
These are bascially just a all encompassing terms to use to describe people who are not ethnically Chinese. And to clarify, I don’t think these terms are inherently hostile, I think its more like not feeling welcomed/accepted by the local community. It can be used both positively or negatively depending on context. Its tribalism basically, because you’re in an unfamiliar place and you feel like you want to stick together to survive.
Because… think about it this way, Wong Kim Ark, was by default, denied of his birthright US Citizenship because he was non-white, and he had to fight a court case over it (he won, this happened all the way back in 1898). So imagine being in that time period, imagine all the discrimination and xenophobia, you can see why the “outsider” term would be used, right? I think this sentinment just continued down to present day.
A year or so ago, the new UK government sent a delegation to China to improve relations and shore up trade and investment deals, ignoring criticism from the left about Uyghur genocide
This is what the Tankies get fundamentally wrong about the modern world - the idea that anything anti-China is a smear to further Western Imperialism is a throwback to the cold war dichotomy of The West vs Communism.
In reality now, it’s all about investment and global trade, neoliberal wealth generation over human rights. Of course propaganda is real and everywhere, but the framing of it all as West vs East is just incredibly outdated and oversimplified.
Downplaying or waving away mistreatment of the Uyghurs puts you on the same side as Western Governments, so dismissing the issue as Western Propaganda is fundamentally flawed
Yeah, people heard their grandpa say racist/straight propaganda against a country they know in the modern day as useful and decide to go overboard protecting it as if every negative statement cant be trusted.
Its definitely not the same world anymore and protecting bad behavior of human treatment behind past victimhood does nothing to help. It just excuses away one more abuser who is trying to make a buck.Fucking thank you. I see people railing against imperialism by describing the world through an entirely imperialistic mindset. They are so lost in the sauce they can’t see straight.
It’s only genocide if its from the Völkermord region in Germany. Otherwise it’s just sparkling mass murder.
The sheer volume of actual Germans on Lemmy that believe this statement and will argue about it is shocking.
Some weird guilt complex that still lingers on even though that generation will soon wither and die.
I would love to see the Chinese version of The Simpson’s (dubbed in English)
Their attempt at The Colbert Report was… special. ❤️
The meme checks out: https://www.ceicdata.com/en/china/population-birth-rate-by-region/cn-population-birth-rate-xinjiang . Birth rate was 1.588 in 2017 and at a similar level in the years before that, 1.069 in 2018, 0.814 in 2019 and so on.
Extra surveillance and repression reportedly started in 2014, mass incarceration in 2017.
If you browse other regions of China there, in some (mainly the ones whose names I didn’t recognize which I expect are the most provincial hence you I’ve never heard of them), you will find a fall in birth-rates from aproximatelly the same values to the same values (i.e. around 1.4 to around 0.6, for example https://www.ceicdata.com/en/china/population-birth-rate-by-region/cn-population-birth-rate-jiangxi and https://www.ceicdata.com/en/china/population-birth-rate-by-region/cn-population-birth-rate-shaanxi) but none but Xinjiang have that steep drop in 2017.
Something happenned in Xinjiang at around 2017 and for at least a couple of years that did not happen in the other regions of China.
We can’t really deduce anything about what’s still happenning there, either way, from that graphic.
There was also per county data available, showing a correlation between the size of the decline and the ethnic makeup of the county: “The largest declines have been in counties where Uyghurs and other indigenous communities are concentrated. Across counties that are majority-indigenous the birth-rate fell, on average, by 43.7 percent in a single year between 2017 and 2018. The birth-rate in counties with a 90 percent or greater indigenous population declined by 56.5 percent, on average, in that same year.” https://www.aspi.org.au/report/family-deplanning-birthrates-xinjiang/
Don’t take this badly, but you’re linking a Think Tank funded by the Australian Department of Defense as one can easilly figure out by just looking at their About Us page.
That’s about as trustworthy a “report” as one from a Chinese organisation funded by the the Chinese Government “disproving” the Uyghur Genocide would be.
What was linked by the poster to whom I replied is infinitelly more trustworthy than any reports from a Western “Think Tank” (or Chinese Organisation - the Propaganda tends to come from both kinds of organisation).
The problem in the West in terms of knowing what’s going on in China when it comes to the treatment of the Uyghurs is exactly that in addition to China itself, every country which sees China as an adversary has been poluting the information space on that subject with Propaganda (which then gets endlessly parroted), so it’s actually harder to find unspinned takes on it than otherwise.
I assume that when they claim that the official Chinese county data is showing certain things, that that county data is indeed showing those things. Otherwise they would have no credibility and their propaganda efforts would be wasted.
Yeah, there is still some level of uncertainty as they could just have crafted that data, but Reports (which are mainly talkie talkie with selected pieces of information - hence prone t cherry picking) are even more distant from raw data hence harder to confirm as “the whole truth” and when they’re from Think Tanks funded by Governments (or, worse, with undisclosed funding sources) in nations that see China as an adversary (or China, or one of its allies) you know with absolute certainty that the makers of such reports have a huge incentive to push the viewpoint of the mainstream politicians of those nations.
Ultimatelly Trust is a scale rather than just two absolute points, and highly processed selective data wrapped with lots of text is itself less trustworthy because it’s harder to check that it’s both true and complete (i.e. hasn’t been cherry picked), and sources which are funded by those who openly have very specific views of the target of such reports are much less trustworthy on that subject than sources not suffering from such a conflict of interest.
It’s a report that has been widely reported on in the media at the time. They could not just “craft data” and get away with it. Forging verifiable data is the stupidest thing that a think tank could do if they want their future reports to also be picked up by mainstream media. They can be creative with their conclusions or accusations, but claiming that official government data says X, while it doesn’t, that’s not going to fly and they know it.
It’s a report that has been widely reported on in the media at the time.
Well, yeah, that’s the whole point of Think Tanks - it’s to produce reports for the media to unquestioningly parrot and in this day and age they definitelly unquestioningly parrot Think Tank reports without actually checking them, especially when they align with what the Government says and the target is a different nation’s Government (they’re more likely to actually check those things and even question them if the target is an internal group in a country, but even in certain countries you see for example reports of the words of spokespersons from, say, representatives of the industry treated with more implicit trust than those from unions, even though both sides should be thought of as equally biased towards certain interests),
Australia specifically falls in the “Country with wholly captured Press” category, same as the US, the UK and China itself.
As an example, a lot of the Propaganda pushed out around the 7 of October attack of Hamas on Israel was also pushed out by amongst others similar organisations and was widely reported in the media at the time as well as repeated by countless politicians in the West, and in the fullness of time most of that turned out to be wildly exagerated, misportrayal of events and even complete total bollocks.
Given the present day levels of “journalistic” “integrity” of the Press, especially in Anglo-Saxon countries, “widely reported on the media” isn’t the stamp of trustworthiness you seem to think it is.
Idk, if you educate women the fertility rate usually drops, so it stands to reason if you reeducate them it’d drop even further…
Dark.
Not that quickly.
So they just built a lof of universities and accepted women free of charge. So generous! We should follow their example.
I think it was a pun, pretending to confuse education with “re-education” by implying that re-education might have similar benefits to education (like upwards economic mobility) that would result in having fewer children, instead of the detrimental reasons reeducation would actually result in lower birthrates e.g. incarceration and other stresses.
No shit
Congratulations, you understood it from the get-go. You’re clearly not the target audience for the comment.
👏
👏
👏
Do you brag about passing cognitive tests, too?
It’s not true, you’re CIA, and even if it was true it would be a good thing.
You’re CIA.
(/s obviously)
(You’re CIA)
He’s CIA, I backtracked his IP address.
Consequences will never be the same
Well, I got the reference at least…
This is a country that had a one child policy for the ethnic in group. But to do this in secret betrays intention.
Didn’t they invite the UN or so?
Yup, got an article:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/china-un-xinjiang-human-rights-1.5968002And the main folk accusing of geneocide are the ones who are supporting the openly observable genocide in Gaza, right?
It raises questions on the accusations? Especially with other stuff the US govt has done and accused people of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimonyThis entire thread is a response to a deleted comment.
Ok. That’s it. I’m going back to Reddit.
This comment is a response to a comment about responses to a deleted comment.
The deleted comment was claiming that
“All of the human rights abuses from China are faked. There is no war in ba sing sey. All of these reports of atrocities are generated by dirty lying westerners. The same dirty lying westerners who support the genocide in Palestine.”
I linked an article that mentions that they were ok with the UN visiting, but not with preconceived notions that there was a genocide.
And I asked about why the people who mainly push this, the western govt’s, do not declare the openly visible genocide in Gaza as such, do the reverse.
Removing the comment and then misinterpreting it is a bad thing.
😎
Didn’t they invite the UN or so?
Yup, got an article:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/china-un-xinjiang-human-rights-1.5968002
“You can come visit while we watch, but no investigation allowed”
Wow, definitely not simping for genocide by trying to portray that as a refutation. Did you even read your own article?
And the main folk accusing of geneocide are the ones who are supporting the openly observable genocide in Gaza, right?
No.
Bit like the redcross and the nazi work camps SS gard: look they are all happy with their conditions and we even have a play park. IRC: well I see nothing to the contrary. See you when there’s another report.
What’s more likely A that it’s all lies or B that both Israel and China are actively committing separate genocides pointed at Muslim minorities.
Believe it or not more than one genocide can occur at once.
Believe it or not more than one genocide can occur at once.
🤯
Pug please remember some of us learned to txt in l33t days and have no clue what that emoji stands for
Is that a brain explosion? It’s hard to see on my client
Pug please remember some of us learned to txt in l33t days and have no clue what that emoji stands for
s0z
Is that a brain explosion? It’s hard to see on my client
Yes
Kewl
